Question on found horse issue

[barbhorses]

On another topic, was Kiger Trinket rounded up by the BLM and though to be apart of the Kiger herd?

[Michelle Clarke]

There certainly are variations in the Kigers, just as in ALL breeds - I don't think that even needs to be debated. Not all Kigers are fed the same, kept the same or ridden the same and those factors have tons to do with how a horse not only develops, but looks at that moment in time.

In my opinion, the Riddle horses generally are heavier and naturally have more bulky muscle. The Kiger horses tend to be a little larger, leaner, even "fine", if you will, with some individuals. This has been my observation for the time I have been involved with the breed over the last 15 years.

But all that aside, when you look at (most) Kigers, you know. Even while I am picking out picts for comparisons, the Kigers stand out as Kigers. I can't put my finger on it and it most likely is just a combination of things.

The biggest issue here is that we are dealing with a wild animal that will choose to breed at its' own will to whomever it likes. This may or may not fit into any specific type that people are looking for. We have no control over it...the only control we have is in domestic breeding programs and it is ultimately up to breeders to be educated (by the registries) and adhere to a strict breeding program.

Certain horses are picked by breeders for not only their likes, but their markets. What kind of market do you think there is/was up in Washington and Oregon.... Stock horse type. So if I was a breeder, back in the day before all the internet stuff, I would be choosing stock horse types so I could actually sell my stock. That is what people were familiar with and could use on ranches and for ranch type work. If the Kigers were a wild herd on the east coast, my guess is that a very different type would have been perpetuated.

Now we have many ways and an open market to promote these horses, so diversity is only beneficial. You can have a breed standard that allows for different "types" without being stuck to one specific, detailed look.

Just focus on what common thread the Kigers seem to have: a spanish appearance, highly trainable, soft gaits (easy to ride trot/canter), capable of deep bonding with their human, soundness and versatility. This can come in different "packages". Even the Friesans, who are pretty uniform, have evolved from a very cart looking horse, to now the F4+ generations that are more sport horse built....and even more trainable than they were 20 years ago.

In my mind, there are three bloodlines if you will: the Kiger, Riddle and Found. It would be interesting to compare with people who own and breed these "lines" (or crosses of) as to not only looks, but trainability, strengths, weaknesses, etc.

[Michelle Clarke]

In my opinion, if the BLM and people invloved in the Kigers put these horses onto the HMAs, then they need to be accepted. If they were not added to the herds for breeding purposes, then they should be being bred out.

There are other breeds that allow certain horses in for new blood on a time scale, there is a cap on it. In Columbia, they put Lusitano into the bloodlines of Pasos every nine generations of a line. Then some breeds allow other horses that fit the type and STRICT criteria for bloodstock. This keeps the lines diverse.

We all know what happens when lines get too inbred too long...health is one of the first things to go, including size. The simple fact that alot of Kigers seem to get taller after being bred in captivity is showing me that there is some good diversity still available. On the flip side, we don't know when these horses come out of the wild just how related they are. You could very well unknowingly breed two closely bred animals already. That is another thing that registries need to educate breeders on, is how to tell when lines are too close or not by the foals and issues or lack thereof.

I have one Riddle mare and the foals that she and Charro produce you can certainly tell there is a little hybrid vigour in those horses.

[canadiankigers]

if the BLM and people invloved in the Kigers put these horses onto the HMAs, then they need to be accepted

Okay, this is where I must agree to disagree. Unless there is solid proof by the BLM and from the BLM that Dakota ever set foot on one of the Kiger HMA's and was included as a Kiger regardless of her Paisley freeze brand then I have no choice but to consider the misinformation about her exactly that. I have heard 5 different versions of the Dakota story and each time it becomes less and less valid. She is a wonderful horse and has certainly added a lot to the Kiger breed but until the documentation from the BLM can be produced I cannot in good conscience even consider the matter.

I do not mean to hurt anyones feelings or belittle anyone. That is NOT my intention. I am only trying to do what is right for the breed. Do we have a bottle neck situaton? I don't know. Is it necessary to bring in other Mustangs / breeds and call them Kiger. I do not believe that is the answer. Until we actually sit down and get the exact numbers on genetic viability I am not prepared to bring in outside breeds and call them Kigers.
JMHO.

[sbutter]

How do we go about getting the registries to open up on information? I don't know what kind of process that would be. What would need to happen to make that a possibility?

[Michelle Clarke]

Kelly, I was only speaking in general - I don't know about Dakotas' history. Though I will say that years later when I found out that I had bought a filly out of a horse with considered "found blood", I was less than pleased considering the price tag I paid for a very young horse. I was never informed about the terms, meaning found, or bloodlines. I think I would have really really been mad if I had wound up keeping her and eventually breeding her. Like it has been said, it should be up front at least so folks can make an educated choice.

Kelly, I agree with you that I don't belive it is necessary to bring in other breeds at this time. I think that it should be public info the real bloodlines of the horses that are being bred, like you guys are trying to do. In order to improve on the horses we already have, we need to know about each line: Kiger, Riddle and Found. I don't belive that Found should be bred to Found...I think that while there are very good qualities that may have been brought in, that only the horses that possed those good qualities from those horses should be bred, but agian, to dilute it, not perpetuate it. Of course that is optimum with any breeding. If you are breeding to negate something, it should only take 3 generations if you choose your breeding stock correctly.

[canadiankigers]

Michelle:

I did not mean to insinuate that you were speaking specifically about the "Dakota issue" and apologise if I have offended you. The message I was trying to relay was why I consider Dakota as a non Kiger. I mean no disrespect to anyone and I do acknowledge that Dianne has produced some wonderful horses. I also whole heartedly agree that found should not be bred to found and in my mind, it DOES perpetuate the found horse issue.

You can imagine how I felt when I discovered that Dakota carried a Paisley freeze brand. Not only did I feel betrayed but I had bred Saleen and got what I THOUGHT was the first Kiger to be bred and born in Canada. Turns out I was misled and it did not bode well for the Kigers in Canada. As the only breeder and registry it really made us look less than educated. Our credibility had been tampered with.

I know that a lot of other people have been in the same boat and believe me when I say I understand. I feel that what we as Kiger owners and Kiger registries need to do is implement a cooperative educational campaign about the breed.
JMHO
Kelly

[fantasykiger]

Correct me if I am wrong.... but weren't found horses declared by the KMA to be Kiger Mustangs, not by the BLM management.

[canadiankigers]

Tiffany:

Yes!!!! That is absolutely correct!!

[sbutter]

Is there some way we can get the KMA to identify then differently? Or has that ship come and gone?

[canadiankigers]

In my opinion that ship has sailed. It is actually a very long standing issue that has to date not been resolved. It would be great if they would but right now the only way of finding out what horses are found and not found is by using the Mustang Directory. Not all are listed but the majority of the original found horses can be found there. It would just be a matter of looking through the database for all those listed with an asterick *. The link is www.uskigers.com/directory.htm

[rubymountainkigers]

Actually if you look in the KMA Studbook it lists HMA of Origin for all horses from the wild. It also lists sire and dam on all horses registered that don't come directly from the wild. Those horses from the wild have rangebred for the dam and sire. It still lists their HMA of Origin so you can see if they are from Kiger, Riddle or another HMA.. It may take a little time but it is fairly easy to trace a horses pedigree using the studbook and see if they go back to "found" ancestors. With a few simple calculations you can figure out what percent "found" blood an individual horse has.

[nightrider]

Kelly
Your statement about the KMA and the found horses is not entirely correct.
The BLM DID bring the original found horses to the KMA and request that they be accepted as Kigers. The KMA gave them the name" found". That makes a big difference, especially in light of the horses that were brought in to the KMA and accepted as Kigers at a later date.

George

[juslyn]

Someone mentioned that the KMA paid for testing done on those gathered in 2007. Does anyone have these results? How many were tested? Were those adopted out also among those tested? I'd love to find out if Xana was one.

Suzy

[stormyranch]

The tests were never done. The BLM put the Kabosh on it.
Lisa