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Post by barbhorses on Jan 23, 2009 20:56:31 GMT -5
Kelly Your statement about the KMA and the found horses is not entirely correct. The BLM DID bring the original found horses to the KMA and request that they be accepted as Kigers. The KMA gave them the name" found". That makes a big difference, especially in light of the horses that were brought in to the KMA and accepted as Kigers at a later date. George Which horses were those? That means that the originator of the Kiger breed has accepted those horses that were presented to the KMA for registration as purebred Kigers. Was Dakota and Kiger Trinket apart of that bunch? If they were, then they are 100% purebred Kigers. Does anyone have a list of those horses that were accepted by the BLM as purebred Kigers that were presented to the KMA for registration?
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Post by canadiankigers on Jan 23, 2009 21:33:52 GMT -5
Rubymountainkigers: You stated: Actually if you look in the KMA Studbook it lists HMA of Origin for all horses from the wild. Unfortunately I do not have a copy of the KMA stud book . When I inquired as to how to purchase one, I was told in no uncertain terms that I would not get one because I was not a member. So it would be quit impossible for a non KMA member to know this as the stud books are sold only to members. George: I do not mean to argue or start a war! You need to understand that since I have been in Kigers [only 5 short years] I have heard so many different versions and stories about the Found Horse Issue that the only way I will believe anything is to actually receive the documentation from the BLM supporting these issues. I have been lied to, my trust has been betrayed and I have been deceived. I am sure that you would understand if you had been treated that way. After being dragged through the proverbial meat grinder, the only one I will ever believe is the BLM in writing on official BLM letter head with an original official signature....NO COPIES. Barb Horses: You stated “That means that the originator of the Kiger breed has accepted those horses that were presented to the KMA for registration as purebred Kigers.” This is exactly how misinformation starts. One person says something, another person interprets it differently and now you have another story on the verge of being born. All I am saying is that I am tired of the stories, we need facts in writing from the BLM so that we have the real truth documented for posterity. If what everyone is saying here is true then there should be no problem getting the BLM to verify it!!!! And as for Dakota's freeze brand, it is Paisley not Kiger or Riddle HMA!
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Post by barbhorses on Jan 23, 2009 21:42:05 GMT -5
I dont care what freezebrand Dakota has. ALL Kigers are "found" horses. I am saying if this is true then the horses presented by the BLM for registration into the KMA means that the originator of the Kiger breed has in fact accepted the "found" horses as purebred Kigers. Which means, that those horses offspring and themselves are not partial bred Kigers or not Kigers at all. Means that you can breed "found" to "found" as they are purebred Kigers.
My post really came down to one questiong: that is, who has the list of horses that the BLM accepted as Kigers and presented to the KMA for registration? Did such an event really in fact happen? Does anyone have Ron Harding's contact information? As I understand it, was he not the one that presented those Kigers for registration?
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Post by DianneC on Jan 23, 2009 21:50:13 GMT -5
From the KMA notes that I've read it seems that the BLM wanted the Kiger type horses preserved when they were found on other HMAs. They would let the KMA know they were in the corrals and give them first pick. In addition to moving horses from Kiger and Riddle to Paisley, they also put some on Beaty's Butte and in with the Pryor horses in Montana.
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Post by spanishsagegrullas on Jan 23, 2009 22:18:29 GMT -5
Kelly,
Did it ever occur to you that your mistrust ought to be directed towards whomever first told you of the history of Kigers, and did not tell you that they were horses that were considered primitive and Spanish mustang in type, found in several HMAs and placed on one specifically set aside HMA to preserve them?
Sbutter,
Since you started this thread, I am curious what you were initially told about found horses when you bought your Kiger.
Finally,
People:
This is a discussion about something that last happenned 14 to 16 years ago, the last time a "found horse" that was not from Kiger or Riddle HMA was admitted to KMA as a Kiger. 1992 or 1994. Remember that the term "Kiger" was only coined in 1986. I do not think the horses added last were born much later than that, anyway.
I will say here what I have said on all the other boards, and I think a good re-read of this thread will prove me on target.
The found horse "issue" has never been about the horses themselves.
Where has someone stated that the found horses are unacceptable due to departure from the preservation of a type of horse known later as a Kiger? What conformational or other traits are found offensive? Due to the history of the make up of the Kiger, those would be the only acceptable reasons to have any disgruntlement. Sure, there are one or two of the "found horses" that personally I do not think should have been accepted into KMA due to those reasons, but none has had many if any progeny.
And, there are Kigers from the HMA that KMA as accepted as breeding stock that I definately think they should not have.
What is the difference if you have a horse that has Sheepshead blood or Warm Springs blood in it, when the infusion happens on someone's ranch as opposed to happening out on the HMA? Esp when those specific horses were evaluated and selected as a good type. When you think of it, those "Found horses" might actually be better in type than the random horse off the HMA. They certainly were given more scrutiny.
Bottom line is that people seem to object more to how the horse got into the registry as a Kiger, whose horse it was, whose decision. I say, that was over 15 years ago. Get over it! Let it go.
Better to spend your (Collective) time training your horse, taking it to shows, and showing people what lovely horses Kigers are than bickering about it ad nauseum.
I would suggest people read my post of las year on the KMA message board called "Kiger as a type of horse."
Diane P. Spanish Sage Ranch
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Post by karismakigers on Jan 24, 2009 0:46:44 GMT -5
How do we go about getting the registries to open up on information? I don't know what kind of process that would be. What would need to happen to make that a possibility? KMA has been open about the Found bloodlines since AT LEAST 2000, I'm sure it was even before that. It has had the Origin listed and sire/dam listed of all horses. KHAR has been open since inception. All origins listed and full pedigree listed for all horses. Found and 50% Found are registered in Appendix division. All others are registered in Traditional. All horses have % of Kiger HMA, % of Riddle HMA, and % of Found blood (each contributing HMA) on their registration. SMKR hasn't been open. They removed their listing of registered horses in the early 2000 (2002?) and most "Founds" hadn't been listed accurately. When this was brought up, the listing was taken down. Some freezebranded "Founds" were changed to 'half-Kiger' even though they were from other HMAs. AKHR has been open. They have listed all horses with origins when known and sire/dam when known. Most horses have blanks are those from SMKR. CKMR has been open. MWKR hasn't been active in years. I don't know what their policy was. Jillian
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Post by barbhorses on Jan 24, 2009 0:53:40 GMT -5
Jillian, would you have the list of horses that the BLM presented as Kigers to the KMA for registration that are now considered "found"?
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Post by nightrider on Jan 24, 2009 1:43:04 GMT -5
Kelly I took no offence with your statement I was just trying to keep the record straight. One liners to a new member may stand out as fact when it isn’t. There is a lot of information that is misunderstood or misinterpreted in these message boards discussions.
ALL The found horse issue is something to argue about and make the Kiger industry look foolish to both new comers and the established breeds, but in reality it is a mute issue. The reason I feel confident in making that statement is.
A: The legal ramifications of trying to bar a horse from the KMA that has been inspected and accepted per the registry’s breed standard .
B: Like it or not the BLM Found horses that were not adopted out were in fact turned out on the Kiger / Riddle HMA , to be later rounded back up. The damage or improvement was already done.
There may well be something the KMA can and maybe should do about the found to found horse bleedings. That is up to the KMA and it’s members to hash out.
There is a lot of hate about the found horse issue, but from what I read here it’s mostly from people who have been burnt by purchasing a horse that wasn’t what it was stated to be. That is the breeder and purchaser’s fault, not a registry. Don’t bash the registry bash the breeder that misrepresented the horse, and yourself for not knowing what you were buying ! The KMA Helped found the breed, set the breed standard, promoting the Kigers to the best of there ability. Ect. Ect. The KMA and the Kigers have evolved together. If we want a better Kiger and a better Kiger promotion organization. Drop the old feelings and excuses and join, make your concerns known work with and support the KMA for the future of the Kigers and your particular issues. Heck no reason not to have chapters in other parts of the country, and have inspection clinics on the breed standards, or what ever else can move us forward.
The Kiger horses need a united front and one strong registry to move forward and be competive in the horse industry.
George
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Post by stormyranch on Jan 24, 2009 8:47:17 GMT -5
Well said, George! I agree with you 100%. This is what I have been trying to get across to people for years. Let's move forward and promote our breed! Kevin Sink President of KMA
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Post by DianneC on Jan 24, 2009 10:33:52 GMT -5
I agree, if Michelle wanted to close this mega-thread that would be fine with me.
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Post by Michelle Clarke on Jan 24, 2009 12:29:27 GMT -5
Well, with that said...I am going to lock it and be done with it. I think this has hashed out about every aspect of the Founds and given someone who is researching a pretty good idea to form their own opinions. I don' t want this to get ugly and there should never be a finger pointing tone....it is what it is, and there are breeders, owners and registries that handle it all differently. No one is going to agree on one end, so it is good there are many options. Bottom line: educate yourself if you are buying or breeding and make your own choice. The BLM and KMA did what they did for whatever reasons (speculate all you want, but you can't change it).
The whole point of this Kiger Board is to move forward and I think that is the common feeling here for the most part, even if we have different views on certain subjects.
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