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Post by sbutter on Jan 19, 2009 19:29:14 GMT -5
I definitely don't think the whole "evaluation" system is going to happen any time soon, since it would be hard to get someone to travel around and judge each horse. It would probably be good if several people judged the same horse also. Unless there is some way to do what Michelle was saying and send in videos of horses going around in a triangle pattern...but that can get tricky too, especially if you aren't good with video cameras and all that other stuff. There has to be some way of evaluating horses are some kind of a system that "encourages" and educates people on what to breed for. Who knows, I may be wrong, but it is good to throw ideas out there.
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Post by barbhorses on Jan 19, 2009 20:32:56 GMT -5
I know what a Sulphur is and what it isn't. I know where the Iberian horses are on the HMA and where they are not. I know their genetics, history, and conformation. I have studied a lot on what true old style Spanish conformation is and even get remarks on my mare from the editor on Conquistador magazine and just over hearing people talking about my horse (at shows) that her type is what the old Spanish horse use to look like (yes feather in my cap). Just because another breed that is thought to be "pure" and supposedly is related to the Sulphur is not a big deal as we already knew that they were old Spanish and they have already been related to other breeds that are also praised for their "purity". Being that you are a Kiger person, I am not certain as to why you are so thrilled that the Sulphur is yet again related to another possible old Spanish horse? What does that have to do with a Kiger? You also might want to provide the genetic report of where it states that the Brazilian breed is related to the Sulphur. mtDNA is NOT solid proof of how Iberian your horse is. You can have a 99% Draft horse with an Iberian mtDNA pattern. All you have to do is breed a Spanish mare to a draft stud and then kept breeding a solid female line to a draft stud. That is why Spanish markers are so important and where the breed is placed in the breed groups (genetically). I always use mtDNA as icing on the cake. It is also a very interesting tid bit that the Sulphur only shows the D1 and D3 Iberian mtDNA marker. Does that prove how Spanish they are? NO. I would LOVE to see a chart like this for the Kiger. I use to have it, but that was on an old computer. I should just have Dr. Cothran send the Kiger genetic report to me. This is called a dendrogram. This takes into account the Spanish markers. If the group displays enough Spanish markers they are then placed into the Iberian breed group. THIS is the information that I use to prove that the Sulphur is Iberian. THEN comes the mtDNA pattern.  |
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Post by barbhorses on Jan 19, 2009 21:41:01 GMT -5
Here is what Dr. Cothran stated about mtDNA:
"mtDNA types show maternal lineage and it has value within breeds for
that. It has little or no value for breed identification as discussed
before. Large patterns of geographic distributions of mtDNA haplotype
groups is giving information about domestication."
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Post by Michelle Clarke on Jan 19, 2009 22:18:19 GMT -5
Okay, I don't mind the disagreements or opinions, but lets' not take anything personal - just state what you belive are the facts. The great thing is that everyone here has something to offer, and we can all learn from it - no one has claimed to be an expert. Keep the personal remarks out.
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Post by Michelle Clarke on Jan 19, 2009 22:27:10 GMT -5
George, thanks for the pict - very interesting. I wonder if the stallion on the left wound up greying also. I still have not seen for myself a very light dun Kiger that has stayed that way, though I am not saying they don't exist...
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Post by spanishsagegrullas on Jan 19, 2009 22:27:54 GMT -5
Dear friends,
I wanted to point out that the "dendogram" that Kimberlee Jones, who many are familiar with in both the Kiger and Sulphur circles, relies on, is not part of any published paper, does not rely on any established scientific uses of markers, and just about the only place where I have ever seen a "scientist" claim that they can prove similarity breed by breed, is from Dr. Cothran.
It just is not accepted or well-established practice in the world of genetic evaluation. I have asked a few veterinary geneticists that I know if this is accepted, and have not been given any kind of favorable reply.
If anyone has any contrary information where these types of analysis are published in a scientific journal, and relied on by academicians, I would welcome hearing that.
Dr. Cothran does studies on inbreeding co-efficients, and that scientific process is well established, so his results can be given credibility.
If one does a Google search, probably using "Cothran" and "spanish" you will see how many times he has done "genetic studies" for a given group of horse enthusiasts, and have proclaimed that group one of the most pure of Colonial Spanish horses.
On the other hand, mtDNA is accepted in human and animal to determine ancestry. The results one gets in these studies is called a "genotype" and certain genotypes have been attributed to certain geographic areas. And, of course, one of the drawbacks is it does just look at the maternal side. That is why in all mtDNA studies, the history of the population comes into play in evaluating the meaning. And, when looking at a single horse, the conformation also is evaluated. But regardless of whether, in Kimberlee's favorite example, a horse is mostly Draft bred, the fact that it had a Spanish ancestor means it has Spanish ancestry. And I might just go out on a limb here to say that it stands to reason that ALL mustangs have Spanish ancestry.
The mtDNA studies on Kigers is interesting because it indicates the close ancestral similarity to the Sorraia, the Lusitano, and the Andalusian -- that being the A3 genotype. Many other mtDNA types are much more distant, even other mustang mtDNA types. Only the horses in SE Oregon seem to carry this mtDNA genotype. If anyone is interested in generating funds to have more herds of mustangs evaluated, so that the sample size is larger, I would be pleased to spearhead the effort to have further studies done.
The interesting thing about the Sulphurs is that no horse tested did NOT carry mtDNA type of D1 or D3, also considered an Iberian genotype, but farther from the original, primitive wild horse of the Iberian peninsula, thought to be the Sorraia. So, when Harding thought he had found a group of horses that exemplified and preserved the primitive type of horse, and collected them, calling them about 8 years later, "Kigers", he was proven correct, as the mtDNA studies were not done until 2001.
Please, everyone, don't chuck your "thinking brains" when people seem to get so technical. As I have always said, do your own research as to the credibility of what is claimed.
Kimberlee, I would like to know what shows Victoria has been to? I only know of a few expos. Were they recent? How did she do?
Diane P.
Spanish Sage Ranch
donning flame retardant pjs
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Post by barbhorses on Jan 19, 2009 22:41:59 GMT -5
Once again, STOP relying on mtDNA as though it is solid proof for being an Iberian BREED.
"mtDNA types show maternal lineage and it has value within breeds for
that. It has little or no value for breed identification as discussed
before. Large patterns of geographic distributions of mtDNA haplotype
groups is giving information about domestication."
You are wrong. Dr. Cothran doesn't state that each herd is the most Iberian.
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Post by kimk on Jan 19, 2009 23:50:45 GMT -5
Kimberlee,
Would you just stop arguing now? Obviously you are much more intelligent, better educated and more well informed than all of the rest of us, and I'm certain that your lifes experiences vastly outweigh anyone elses on this board, so maybe you should go play with someone of your own caliber. Enough is enough.
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Post by barbhorses on Jan 20, 2009 0:43:43 GMT -5
KimK. My information comes from repeated questioning to Dr. Cothran (as far as genetics go).
No one will ever stop learning. However, it is high time that people look at mtDNA for what it is and stop using it for breed identification. That is not how you use mtDNA according to Dr. Cothran which I quoted above.
I know I also have a knack for pissing people off. I just don't believe in sugar coating stuff as I hate it when people do that to me. I would like for people to take a step back (like I did with the Sulphur) and reexamine what they are preaching. I have found that it doesn't match up with what people are saying about the Kiger. I supply proof for my claims, why doesn't the Kiger people?
KimK, I am sure you know that I certainly do not believe what you said about me. It is rather snarky though.
What would be nice, is if someone said something about the Kiger history or genetics they then quote or reference the expert that said it. Just like I do when I say something about the Sulphur. I said that Dr. Cothran stated that he thought that they were the most Iberian horse out of the feral horses in the US that he had tested to date (1997). I supplied his words to prove that. I said that they are in the Iberian breed group. I supplied that proof. You want to read the genetic report on them? I can link you to that too. You want historical accounts? I can give that to you too. Why are the Kiger people exempt from supplying facts with their opinions? Or using information in the wrong way as is done with mtDNA. Conformation is up for debate. What someone thinks is Spanish, another thinks it is not. So, I wont go there as that is subjective.
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Post by sbutter on Jan 20, 2009 1:12:03 GMT -5
I value everything and I do mean everything that has been said in this thread and it has been very educational for me, but we do need to try to find a good middle ground in regard to what has already been said. I personally don't want anything sugar coated, but I at least want to be able to digest it without it being difficult. If we want this discussion to remain educational we need to be careful with the way our words come across (even if you don't mean it to be a certain way). There are a lot of people that don't like being attacked or feeling like they are attacked and once they feel threatened, they know longer listen. So it is a matter of coming across in more of a passive (but truthful) way and it will help the learning juices to continue to flow. And I mean this for everyone! So please try to keep any underhanded remarks to yourself (this has happened on both sides). Keep the innocent bystanders in mind and try to keep the conversation with your grandchildren in mind .  |
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Post by barbhorses on Jan 20, 2009 1:25:26 GMT -5
Good call. I edited a post for content
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Post by sbutter on Jan 20, 2009 1:30:03 GMT -5
Thank you for being open and understanding |
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Post by Michelle Clarke on Jan 20, 2009 6:57:28 GMT -5
Okay, we have gotten way off subject here and it is taking over what was a very good thread. Lets' stay to topic on the Found Horses and if you want to talk about Sulphers, I would suggest finding a Sulpher board and not hijack a Kiger one. I don't mind the genetic discussions, just not pitting one breed against another - which is basically the motive here again....which I don't even understand why what Kiger folks do are even a concern to Sulpher people.
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Post by stormyranch on Jan 20, 2009 8:53:26 GMT -5
barbhorses
Re: Question on found horse issue
« Reply #98 Today at 12:43am »
You want to read the genetic report on them? I can link you to that too. You want historical accounts? I know I don't. I really don't care about the genetics of the sulphur horse. This thread was supposed to be about the found horse issue. Not the genetices of the Sulphur verses the Kiger. Lisa |
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Post by barbhorses on Jan 20, 2009 15:30:49 GMT -5
The KMA registered Sulphurs. That's where the Sulphur came into the picture. Then somehow got into genetics... I think from what Jillian said.
I like to look at all of the Mustang and Colonial Spanish boards. I nearly bought a Kiger. I read the boards because it is fun to look at all of the pretty horses and see what ideas people have. I also have a lot of information to share and it has been useful to share that information on quite a few threads.
I am sorry that you came under the impression that I am pitting breeds against each other. That is not the point of what I said. What I mean is if you have an opinion that requires expert opinion to be behind that opinion in order to substantiate your claims, then supply that information. Which is what I do when I say something about a Sulphur. Which makes it not my opinion, but the opinion of experts.
You know what, I don't care about this whole "found horse" issue as all Kigers are found. I only felt compelled to post when Jillian felt the need to call Sulphurs Kiger look-a-likes. Which I found offending. So, you want me to not care? Don't talk about Sulphurs as though they are a type of Kiger. Don't talk about them unless you really know what you are talking about. Or, you are gonna get me trying to straighten out facts about my chosen breed.
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