Question on found horse issue

[sbutter]

So, I know this is usually a heated topic, but it needs to be resolved eventually. With so many breeders no longer able to breed, I am hoping that whoever is hanging in there can help resolve it. I also think it would be good to get the info out there and even the different point of views to see what we have to work with. I personally like to look at all sides of the coin and then make a decision, before I make any kind of call. I also have a feeling that some of the problems with the whole "found horse" issue is made up of a bunch of little ones. So it would be good to clearly define them and sift through them to see if we can make a heads or tails with the situation. I have the benefit of being new to the breed and I have not had a whole lot invested into them, so I can see why some people may be upset if someone is "bashing" a certain ancestry of their horse after they invested a lot into the horse. I guess for me, I try to look at the big picture and see that it is just another breed of horse (granted, a very awesome horse). It would be good to make clear what a kiger is...is it a horse from a certain location that is of a certain type? Is it Iberian? What else defines a kiger....? Are people upset about the whole "found horse" issue because some shady business went on with horses that looked like kigers, but really weren't? Is it a good thing to add new blood into what we consider a kiger (obviously from a breed or "mustang" that we think would add to the breed)and call the offspring a full kiger or should we identify it differently? Sometimes we have to close the book on the last chapter and move forward and I am wondering what the next best step would be? We want a horse that breeds true and will consistently pass itself on (does its genealogy matter? Why or why not). So, those are some questions that have been rolling around in my head that I am trying to figure out. Any input would be great and much appreciated (for me and any other newbies in the kiger world). Hopefully this thread will be very educational and something that we can be proud of. - Sarah

[canadiankigers]

Sara, yes this can be a very heated topic so to answer your question, I will base my response on how the CKMR decides what is a Kiger and what isn't. Now please understand, the criteria that the CKMR has set down is not necessarily the same as what others have done so there is bound to be some differences of opinion. I am not saying that I am right or wrong, just that the CKMR has done what they feel best for the breed as a whole.

The CKMR bases it's decision on whether a Kiger is pure or partial blood through Lineage, parent verified DNA and the ability to prove that said Kiger can be traced back to both parents from either Kiger HMA and/or Riddle HMA without the addition of non Kiger blood being present within it's pedigree. We also like to see the traditional dun factoring and do allow a minimum of white but for the most part, the CKMR is dedicated to the promotion and preservation of the Kiger breed as a whole.

I hope this has not offended anyone and I apologise in advance if anything I have post causes anyone any inconvenience.
Kelly

[fantasykiger]

The found horse issue is like opening a can of snakes, worms would be putting it lightly. To be completely honest I was not there when the found horses were broght in, I have my opinions, formed from what I have learned over the years and frankly like to keep them to myself to keep the peace.

I believe in order to move forward with out rehashing the past all found horses should be labeled as such and so should the offspring of said horses. Anyone buying a Kiger Mustang should educate themselves on the breed before making a purchase and be aware of the found horses. Buying found blood is not a bad deal as long as you are aware of that. As only certian registeries recognize found blood horses.

[canadiankigers]

Well said Tiffany.

Sara, if you want to trace the lineage of a Kiger, there is a Mustang directory available free on line. It by no means includes all Kigers and partial blood Kigers as the AKHR leaves it up to the horse owner to contact and provide the necessary information about a specific horse for inclusion. What is included in the directory is represented based on the information supplied. Also research into parentage and BLM records and freeze brand numbers have been used to aid in the accuracy and authentication of this data base. You can find it at www.uskigers.com/directory.htm

[karismakigers]

Jan 15, 2009 18:34:16 GMT -5 sbutter said:

I also think it would be good to get the info out there and even the different point of views to see what we have to work with. I personally like to look at all sides of the coin and then make a decision, before I make any kind of call. I also have a feeling that some of the problems with the whole "found horse" issue is made up of a bunch of little ones. So it would be good to clearly define them and sift through them to see if we can make a heads or tails with the situation. - Sarah

Sarah,

As a Kiger breeder with both Kiger and "Found" Kiger bloodlines, I can help reveal some of the myths, rumors and truths of the "Found" blood in the Kiger breed.

I had created a quick reference page about Found Kigers here:
karismakigers.com/FoundKiger.html

When one explores the creation of the Kiger breed, one has to remember that in the early 1970s, the BLM officials (notably E Ron Harding) were trying to find a type of horse not a breed of horse. The type was the "dun colored spanish mustang". When Congress ordered the counting and inventory of all wild horse due to the Wild Horse Act, Harding decided to go looking for the dun spanish mustang. He found it, in pockets, in many different places. From 1976 to 1979, Harding gathered spanish type horses. In 1979, they were called Kigers officially. In 1979, they set up "rules" of selection for specific characteristics of these horses. Harding and BLM didn't put a deadline on when to "close" the genepool to additions. Afterall, they had last released the Sheepshead HMA mare, Chaquita/Teacup onto Kiger HMA in 1994.

The KMA was the first registry. I have taken snippets of their meeting minutes that mention anything regarding found horses and placed them on three pages:

karismakigers.com/oldpages/FoundMintues.html
karismakigers.com/oldpages/FoundMinutes2.html
karismakigers.com/oldpages/FoundMinutes3.html

My personal comments are in BOLD on the pages. All "quoted" material is straight from the KMA minutes with the dates.

If you look at Kigers as a phenotypic breed, then Found horses makes sense.

Incidently, if you look at the Found horses that KMA allowed in you'll find the following info:

29 horses noted as found.
If I remember correct: 1 of the found horses was actually from Kiger HMA, so it is really 28. Kiger Juniper which is listed as "Paisley from Kiger". This mare's freezebrand, if I remember correctly, actually shows up on the Kiger/Riddle freezebrand list so she really is from Kiger HMA. But she was LAST rounded up from Paisley, so Paisley was incorrectly listed as her origin. Juniper had at least 3 registered offspring and 1 half-Kiger registered offspring.

So, 28 horses remaining. Of the 28, 5 were geldings. Of the 5, 2 were DQ from registration so that is a mute point: Utah Jake (sulphur springs) and Warrior (sheepshead). The remaining geldings Buckshot (Palomino Butte), Spanish Gentleman (Sulphur Springs) and Shadybrook's Dan (Potholes). Yes, potholes really was an HMA when he was gathered. Since than, potholes has been zeroed out of horses and eliminated from the HMA list. Why register Found geldings?? I don't know...wasn't there. Perhaps they were good riding examples, who knows.

So, that leaves 23 horses. there were 3 stallions. Kiger Blitzen (East Warmsprings), Kiger Vale Badger (Sheepshead) and Cortez Amigo (Sulphur Springs). Littleton only registered one offspring of Blitzen's, Thunder (174-P). Badger had several offspring and met the 5 required offspring. **Note, KMA had originally required all Found Kigers to produce registerable/passing offspring, 5 for stallions, 3 for mares.** Cortez Amigo produced only 2 registered horses.

**Note, my KMA studbook was current as of 3/2001 so more offspring may have been registered since than.**

So, that leaves 20 mares.
Tip (East Warmsprings) produced 4 registered and 2 half-Kigers.
Kiger Trinket (Palomino Butte) produced 6 registered.
Kiger Meg (Palomino Butte) produced 3 registered. Her dam is Kiger Trinket (above).
Kiger Bell (Sheepshead) produced 2 registered.
Spice (East Warmsprings) produced 1 registered. Her dam is Tip (above).
Vale's Skinny Lady (Sheepshead) produced 3 registered. Dam of Badger above in stallions.
Kiger Lady Amber (Sheepshead) produced 2 registered.
Nevada Jan (Nevada) produced 1 registered.
Ribbon (Palomino Butte) produced 4 registered.
Kiger Tiger Mystique (Sheepshead) produced 3 registered.
Nevada's Misfortune (Nevada) produced zero.
Kitten (Sheepshead) produced 3 registered.
Miss Kitty (Sheepshead) produced 2 registered.
Alley Cat (Sand Springs) produced 4 registered.
Palomino Jeanie (Palomino Butte) produced zero.
Vale Charmer (Sheepshead) produced 3 registered.
Vale Foxfire (Sheepshead) produced 4 registered.
King's Tuesday Black Mare (South Steens) produced 1 registered.
Lahontan Lace (Nevada) produced 1 registered.
Pocahontas Little Mischief (Sand Springs) produced 3 registered. Dam is Alley Cat.
Lucky Lady (Paisley) produced 2 registered.

So, up to 3/2001, only 11 of the 20 had fulfilled the qualification of producing 3 registered offspring. I'm sure another 5 have probably fulfilled the qualifications since than, but until I buy an updated KMA Studbook, I don't know for sure.

Of course, there is also Kiger Kid which is not in the listed 29 Found horses, but doesn't appear on the kiger/Riddle gathered horses. If I am correct, he is from Sheepshead. Then there was offspring registered in KMA during their "first" merge attempt with SMKR that are from Found horses not registered in KMA. Bonita is out of Chiquita (Teacup) from Sheesphead, so 50% Found. Lakota Sioux is 50% found as she is out of Dakota from Paisley HMA. Shasta Sioux is 25% found as she is out of Lakota Sioux.

Most of the found horses are dead or pretty old. Tip (1982), Trinket (1984), Meg (1986), Bell (1987), Blitzen (1988), Spice (1987), Skinny Lady (1981), Badger (1988), Amigo (1989), Amber (1989), Jan (1988), Ribbon (1988), Dan (1990), Mystique (1986), Misfortune (1985), Kitten (1987), Miss Kitty (1984), Alley Cat (1981), Jeannie (1990), Jazz (1990), Charmer (1990), Foxfire (1991), Buckshot (1991), Gentleman (1990), Tuesday Black Mare (1988), and Lucky Lady (1987).

Jillian

[spanishsagegrullas]

"If you look at Kigers as a phenotypic breed, then Found horses makes sense."

Please also know that phenotype is the outward expression of genotype, when speaking inherited genes. This is how all breeds started -- selecting a look, then breeding horses that carried that look, to produce a foal that has the look that is desired. Harding was looking for horses that looked, to the best of his knowledge, spanish in type. Figuring that they carried the genetics of the Spanish/Iberian horse. Turns out he was right!

I would also suggest people read a paper that was written after much research to document the spanish ancestry of the Kiger and the other wild horses of Southeastern and Eastern Oregon. It might also be of interest to the Kiger History section of KigerQuest.

Go to www.spanish-mustang.org and scroll down to the link/button that says "Spanish Ancestry."

Diane P.
Spanish Sage Ranch

[Michelle Clarke]

Jillian, thanks for posting all of that great info and taking the time to do it!

[sbutter]

I guess my whole thought started from what is a kiger and what are we breeding for. If a kiger is a horse that is or is a descendant form the kiger HMAs then it should stick to that, right? If people are worried about the bottleneck that could happen from not enough kigers, then we should have some outside horses (that have everything like a kiger except do not originate from those HMAs) reserved to introduce back into the breeding programs. Sticking to the former plan, I would like to see how far we can go before introducing these horses into the program, before it becomes detrimental to the breed from to much inbreeding. I don't know how many "pure" kigers are out there, so I don't know how much of it is a reality. If we try to stick to the "pure" idea, but want to have those "found" horses as a back up plan, who will breed and keep the "found" horses in reserve (so we know what we are getting when we cross them back with the "pure"). If the first plan doesn't work, we will want high quality horses to introduce back into the kigers to help the gene pool.

Another thought that comes to mind when I think of the gene pool problem is... what horses should be introduced to the pool? Should it be strictly "found" horses or should we look farther in and look at other "established" Iberian breeds? We would want to still breed for all the good kiger traits, so that would slim the search down. If we are breeding for a higher level kiger that can still be a great all around horse, except we want it to be able to really hold its own in the competition world, shouldn't we look to breeds that can already do that? Or are we/ should we still stick to the "wild" side of things and keep it strictly to the wild/feral horses and not already proven breeds? What is the ratio of "pure" kigers to the "found" horses and how much crossing has already taken place?

If we stick to the kiger type of horse and don't really look at where they come from, shouldn't it be open to any breed of horse that would "improve" the kiger (while still being able to tell that offspring stick to the kiger type and not something new). If the offspring of the cross is bred back into the kiger line and a few generations later it has a "small" percentage of that cross, should/ could it be registered as a full kiger?

So far this has been some of thoughts that have run through my head that I haven't quite figured out yet. If you have any more info or even opinions that you aren't sure you should post, because of possible hurt feelings, I would love to hear them. You can send me a personal message on here or email me at [e-mail]

I would love to get a better hold of this and goals for what I need to aim for in breeding.

-Just a side note. Was Dakota the horse that was concieved on the kiger HMA and then born on Paisley HMA? Is that true? And what is the story behind that. Again, feel free to send me a private message if you think it is to delicate of a subject.


Thanks for that info Karismakigers and spanishsagegrullas

[karismakigers]

Jan 16, 2009 15:16:42 GMT -5 sbutter said:

I guess my whole thought started from what is a kiger and what are we breeding for. If a kiger is a horse that is or is a descendant form the kiger HMAs then it should stick to that, right?

www.kigerhorse.org/blm_plan_excerpts.php

At the top, you'll see Plan Excerpts, Complete plan, and photos. Browse through this information. This is the 1996 Management Plan for the Kiger horses residing on Kiger/Riddle HMAs. To my knowledge this is still the same plan in place currently. BLM is suppose to revise the plan every 10 years, but as of 11/2007 they had not.

Jan 16, 2009 15:16:42 GMT -5 sbutter said:

If people are worried about the bottleneck that could happen from not enough kigers, then we should have some outside horses (that have everything like a kiger except do not originate from those HMAs) reserved to introduce back into the breeding programs.

A bottleneck has already occurred for the most part. In the 2003 genetic study, many alleles were missing. It might have been from a small group sample or there might have been a real problem that was ignored. It was hoped that an additional sampling would occur in 2007 to determine the severity, if any.

Jan 16, 2009 15:16:42 GMT -5 sbutter said:

I don't know how many "pure" kigers are out there, so I don't know how much of it is a reality. If we try to stick to the "pure" idea, but want to have those "found" horses as a back up plan, who will breed and keep the "found" horses in reserve (so we know what we are getting when we cross them back with the "pure").

There are plenty of Kiger/Riddle "pure" kigers out there. Without a current KMA studbook (guess I'm purchase one this year), I can't tell you for certain, but I would hazard that there are probably 75-80% of the Kiger population is without found blood.

Jan 16, 2009 15:16:42 GMT -5 sbutter said:

Another thought that comes to mind when I think of the gene pool problem is... what horses should be introduced to the pool? Should it be strictly "found" horses or should we look farther in and look at other "established" Iberian breeds? We would want to still breed for all the good kiger traits, so that would slim the search down. If we are breeding for a higher level kiger that can still be a great all around horse, except we want it to be able to really hold its own in the competition world, shouldn't we look to breeds that can already do that? Or are we/ should we still stick to the "wild" side of things and keep it strictly to the wild/feral horses and not already proven breeds?

Interesting questions. Here is a question, before 1979, when the horse we now know and call the Kiger was being gathered from all over the Oregon desert, what was it? It was the dun colored spanish mustang. If you talk to Ron Harding he makes a clear distinction between the spanish mustang and the feral horse. The feral horse were the remounts, the ranch escapees/turnouts, the work drafts. The spanish mustang was the isolated pockets of a older, unique type of horse. Ron was trying to find the pockets.

So, you ask if we should expand the kiger genetics with Iberian breeds. I can tell you that the American Lusitano and the American Andalusian are not the same horse that were brought over here so many centuries ago. The americans have changed the spanish/iberian horse even from its native type that is available now. What the Spaniards and the Portugues want for the Lusitano/Andalusian image is not what the Americans strive for. Hence the multitude of registries for those two breeds of horses.

If we cross a Kiger to an Andalusian to improve its success in Dressage world, do we still have a Kiger competing well? Or was it competing well because it had Andalusian blood? Why not selectively breed a Kiger for the conformation, heart, stamina, and talent to succeed in the Dressage world. That way, the Kiger breed earns its merit on its own heritage and genetics.

Jan 16, 2009 15:16:42 GMT -5 sbutter said:

What is the ratio of "pure" kigers to the "found" horses and how much crossing has already taken place?

Right now, looking at the horses that I know that are out there and who has been breeding what, I'd say the Kiger breed is probably 80% kiger/Riddle and 20% found. And that estimate might even be too high...looking at live population only it is probably closer to 80/20. Breaking down that slice of 30% of the population:I would say that 3% are the horses with between 62-100 % Found blood in their pedigrees. The remaining 17% of the slice are those horses with less than 38% found blood in their pedigrees.

Again without having an up-to-date studbook, I can't give exact numbers. Even running some quick calculations on my old KMA studbook, I was finding more 25% and 12.5% found bloods than the 100% and 50%. The found blood is being slowly fazed out as the Found horses become older and older.

Jan 16, 2009 15:16:42 GMT -5 sbutter said:

-Just a side note. Was Dakota the horse that was concieved on the kiger HMA and then born on Paisley HMA? Is that true? And what is the story behind that. Again, feel free to send me a private message if you think it is to delicate of a subject.

So many rumors float about the Paisley horses.

Fact: there were several Kiger mares moved from Kiger/Riddle to Paisley. Fact: At a later date, Paisley was gathered.

One of these days, I'll file a FOIA and pay the $$$ to have the gathering/release records for Paisely HMA. With those records, I'll be (hopefully) able to determine if Dakota could possibly have been a kiger.

Problems with the story: Timelines: some say the Paisley herd was gathered nearly three years after the Kiger mares were placed in there. Hence the 'Kiger sired baby' would have been 2 years old. There had already been many, many duns/grullas in the Paisley herd prior to the Kiger release in there. So, there was no easy way of determining the offspring of the Kiger mares (sired by Kiger stallions) and the 1/2 Kigers and the dun/grulla Paisley horses. Except for suckling youngsters, there is no way to prove positive a dam/daughter relationship without DNA. The 2 year old wasn't suckling from a Kiger mare when it was brought in. There are also rumors that the 2 year old wasn't even in the band with the Kiger mares when captured.

Without the BLM paperwork, no one will be able to prove that Dakota (and the other Paisley dun fillies) were actually from Kiger parents or even that they weren't. But Dakota wears a Paisley HMA freezebrand and wasn't adopted while she was still suckling her dam, so essentially she is a Paisley origin horse.


Jillian

[sbutter]

Interesting questions. Here is a question, before 1979, when the horse we now know and call the Kiger was being gathered from all over the Oregon desert, what was it? It was the dun colored spanish mustang. If you talk to Ron Harding he makes a clear distinction between the spanish mustang and the feral horse. The feral horse were the remounts, the ranch escapees/turnouts, the work drafts. The spanish mustang was the isolated pockets of a older, unique type of horse. Ron was trying to find the pockets.

So, I'll respond with another question . If the "original" kigers were not all from the same place/ herds and were in individual pockets, how is that not in dispute? Or is it? If they were just gathered together from other isolated herds, are there more herds out there that weren't able to be rounded up? Are there more isolated herds out there of spanish influence that weren't lucky enough to be gathered into the kiger HMAs? Do they look different from the kigers, but carry the same high dun factor? This is when I wish the genetic research was more advanced. So basically, the kigers were the lucky, gathered few of spanish type horses? And any other isolated spanish type mustangs could possibly be the very same thing, just not those select few that were gathered?

[rubymountainkigers]

Teacup aka Chiquita is an interesting example. Tea Cup was first gathered on Sheepshead HMA. She was taken to the Oregon State Fair by the BLM as an example of what the Kiger mustang was. Later she was turned out on Kiger HMA. She was gathered with her daughter from the Kiger HMA Bonita. Both Teacup/Chiquita and Bonita worked for the BLM at the wildhorse corrals in Burns. In 1999 they were both adopted out at the BLM Kiger adoption in Burns.

Kiger Juniper is another interesting story. She was gathered along with some other horses from Kiger and moved to Paisley HMA. That summer there was a drought and some horses were lost. Kiger Juniper was one of the horses gathered off of Paisley and brought back to Kiger. She was later adopted out. In the KMA stud book she is listed as Kiger from Paisley.

[kimk]

Actually Tim,
I believe Bonita was concieved on Kiger but born in the corrals. Bonita was not yet broke to ride when adopted in 1999, however Chiquita had been used as a saddle horse at the corrals for quite some time.
I had the opportunity to visit Chiquita in the corrals after a gather in about 1995 when she had a dun colt at her side. By then I think she had already been diagnosed as navicular, but I'm not positive of that time frame. I know the diagnosis was made before her adoption in 1999. Don't know what ever happened to the colt, but Bonita certainly wasn't her only offspring, nor was 1999 her only gather off of the Kiger HMA.
Also, Juniper is listed in the studbook as Paisley from Kiger, not the other way around.

[Michelle Clarke]

What would be great to do is post picts of the found horses and see if we could pick apart any conformation/type charactoristics about them, and how they differ (or don't!) from the Kiger...

I remember seeing Blitzen and not liking him, if I recall correctly it was because he was very "course" looking to me. I will have to see if I can find the picts I took.

[Michelle Clarke]

I was told when the Kigers where DNA tested that besides the other markers they had, they also had DNA unique unto their own...any truth to this?

As far as adding in other breeds - I am totally on the fence with this one. While I do see the benefits, I also see tons of negative issues. Besides the unique charactoristicts they possess, there is something inside of them that I do not see in other horses. It is a combination of many things that puts together such a special animal. I know that this is not an opinion shared by all, but having worked with just about every breed on this continent, I can say they are very different, even from the other spanish type breeds.

I belive that people who truely connect with horses, find something very special about the Kiger that they never have had before. They can either put a wall up and be the most difficult animal you have ever had, or they can open up and give you so much more than you ever have thought possible. It is something unique and treasured for the horseman.

Being a breeder of crossbreds, I will also tell you it is a very difficult game. If you are breeding first generation performance/pleasure horses, it is not as difficult as breeding bloodstock. The mix of charactoristicts, type and temperment is overwhelming, not to mention the fact you have to breed that animal a few times to know what traits are more dominant. Some you know right off the bat that they are not going to work. Some take lots of breedings until you know and by that time you have produced a few generations that may not be up to par - then what? At minimum, you may have wasted a good mare for 4-5 breedings.

Jillians point on the Andy/Lusitano not being what could have once been brought over is true, as is no breed - people have always bred for their needs and desires. I think some lines are better than others, as in everything, but determining that and then crossing that over to the Kigers and seeing if it works could waste generations.

The Andalusian, in my opinion, is further away from the Luso as far as being "true" (however you want to call that duck!), because many/most lines of the Andy were bred for pretty looks and cart gaits at one time in history. The Lusitano has always been bred for functionality. That is why I have chosen to breed that way. I am sad that the Alter Real stallion I had available to me to breed to died and I did not have the opportunity to work with those lines within the breeding program. I have alot of admiration for them, along with the Veigas, but those are something most people do NOT want to deal with! Gosh, the ones we have here (Kiger x's) are like 16 hand Paso Finos that breath fire! They are, however, amazing! They are the only horses I have been around that are so dang-gum hot, yet have a learning curve off the charts...it is a perplexing combination and something that will take me years to get used to and master so I can do them justice....hopefully!

In the US, there are still some very nice Lusitanos that have not been "americanized" as of yet...but I am getting off course.

I would be interested if anyone also knows the temperments of the found horses too and how they compared.

[DianneC]

I once thought that the found blood would peter out, and maybe it will eventually. But as of a few years ago there were still breeders breeding 100% found horse to 100% found horse. Bettye Roberts did some research about three years ago, not sure of her source but she's pretty careful about what she says. She said that 30% of the KMA horses had found blood. That's pretty high for 20 years of breeding. I do notice that many people who were breeding found horses have started focusing on foundation horses.
I only had one horse I considered found, although some could disagree. Cricket was out of a mare registered Kiger from Sheepshead. She was OK in the herd, but always causing trouble and I sold her shortly after her second foal. Under saddle she is devious, self willed, cunning and yet brilliant when she wants to be. She had two colts by Chinook, Santana and Oso. Santana will end up 17 hands and is brilliant and good minded. Oso is just turning three and a pain in the butt. However, he is fearless and can escape through the densest, seemingly impassable woods, which he does at any opportunity. I don't have enough experience with other found horses to say, but I looked at a lot of them when I was starting my herd. Most of the ones I have seen lack that certain "something" in looks and personality that drew me to the Kiger. They may be great horses and talented however.