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Post by karismakigers on Jan 20, 2009 17:52:28 GMT -5
The KMA registered Sulphurs. That's where the Sulphur came into the picture. Then somehow got into genetics... I think from what Jillian said. You know what, I don't care about this whole "found horse" issue as all Kigers are found. I only felt compelled to post when Jillian felt the need to call Sulphurs Kiger look-a-likes. Which I found offending. So, you want me to not care? Don't talk about Sulphurs as though they are a type of Kiger. Don't talk about them unless you really know what you are talking about. Or, you are gonna get me trying to straighten out facts about my chosen breed. <Yawn> First Kim, I didn't bring genetics into the topic, I believe it was George that asked a question that I answered. Second, I never called Sulphurs, Kiger-look a likes. I said, "While Utah was probably a bit of a stretch, there are Sulphurs that have the same type (phenotypic and genotypic) as the Kigers. " Notice I DID NOT say "ALL SULPHURS have..." My statement implies that there are <SOME> Sulphurs that look like and have the same genetics as Kigers. I DID NOT say that Kigers have all the genetics that Sulphurs have. Kigers have Ddelk, and mtDNA D cluster which they share with the Sulphurs. Third, If you reread the topic, you will notice that we were talking about spanish type mustangs. That the found horses were brought into the Kiger studbook because they resembled spanish type mustangs, be they from Utah, Nevada or Palomino Butte. I'm sure you aren't offended that I lumped Sulphurs into the spanish type mustangs, if you are, I'm sorry, I'm refrain from doing that in the future. Jillian |
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Post by karismakigers on Jan 20, 2009 19:12:09 GMT -5
Dear friends, I wanted to point out that the "dendogram" that Kimberlee Jones, who many are familiar with in both the Kiger and Sulphur circles, relies on, is not part of any published paper, does not rely on any established scientific uses of markers, and just about the only place where I have ever seen a "scientist" claim that they can prove similarity breed by breed, is from Dr. Cothran. It was never published in a peer reviewed scientific journal. Also, the report is incomplete on the website. Dana use to have the entire report published on her private website many, many years ago. It is a shame that the whole report is not there now. Dana also had the first Cothran Kiger report and the second report on the website. My harddrive has fried about 3 times since then. Does anyone out there have the FULL kiger reports? All these reports (I believe) included blood group typing as their data points. Blood group typing is very old technology and many researchers don't even do it anymore, including Dr. Cothran. Dendrograms are very limited in what they can determine. See my post under Genetic Testing Tools. Jillian |
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Post by angelsdream on Jan 20, 2009 20:23:52 GMT -5
I dont see what the big deal is about the "found" horses. It happened sooo long ago - The point is to move on with the kigers, not keep re-living the past and what happened. My thought on dealing with the "found" blood is to register all kiger's, make the "found" horse bloodlines public knowledge that there lineage is questionable and give an explanation as to why, let the people buying/selling make there own decision. Whether the registries want to register the kiger's as 1/2, 1/4, or 3/4 is up to the registries but the registries need to make a decision about it and impliment it. Yes, Im sure whatever they decide is not going to make EVERYONE happy, but oh well. Life sucks sometimes, deal with it. The point of the registries is not to try and apease everyone, its for the kigers and serves as a way to track history/lineage and a good reference point for new comers to learn about them. Yes we can go on and on about it, but it's up to the board members on the registries to step up and actually get it going and settle on all this. This back and forth about what happened a gazillion moons ago should be over with, it happened, let it go and move forward. Everyone posting the notes from the meetings is pointless. What has it accomplished thus far? THere are a 100 different stories as to what happened.......
There are a lot of breeders/trainers or people in general that have been around kiger's a long while and have a pretty good idea of what a kiger is and should stand for, Im sure with all of them, we could come up with a breed standard and a foundation to move forward easily.
Im not too concerned about the DNA of the kiger's....there's no true way to know. What we DO KNOW is how great the kigers are and there qualities as of today. Kiger's will sell themselves given the opportunity, they don't have to be spanish in history to sell. Just saying they're spanish does not make them any more valuable than what they already are. They are great on there own and can hold up the kiger name. Yes it's very interesting and there are spanish traits in the kigers, but there are also a lot of other horses out there that claim the same thing. No true way to tell where all of them came from, just stories and speculation.
The kiger's are such a great all around horses, let's market them as that. We've got to have unity or at least a common ground with the registries/owners/breeder's and quit the bickering.
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Post by Michelle Clarke on Jan 20, 2009 20:50:12 GMT -5
Okay, one more time. This Board is about Kigers, for Kigers and for the people that cherish them - whatever they may or may not be. While I belive Barbhorses can have some good info to offer, it is not taken well because of the condescending tone and talk about the Sulphers. My guess is that if someone wanted to research the Sulphers, there are plenty of places to do that. So paaaaaaleeeeease, let's stay on the subject of Kigers (there are plenty of ways to ask questions and pose information without dragging another breed into it!).
I would love to get ahold of any of the first reports on the Kigers....!!
Thanks Angel....!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by fantasykiger on Jan 21, 2009 16:33:37 GMT -5
I agree Angel..as long as the buyer is educated, the seller honest, no harm no foul. It should follow suit that there will be, most certianly, no issue.
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Post by canadiankigers on Jan 21, 2009 17:42:03 GMT -5
Angelsdream stated:
Fantasy Kiger stated:
I agree with both of you, but I can't help thinking about those few who use the Kiger name to sell a horse. A good example of this would be dream horse or other classified web sites. That is why I think it is so important for the Mustang Directory to be available to those trying to research bloodlines. Yes, the directory is not complete but as every foaling year comes and goes, there will always be new information to be added.
I also think that a nationally adopted breed standard would go a long way to help people understand what a Kiger is and that dun, barring and bi-coloring does not automatically make it a Kiger. I do feel that the directory is a great tool to help make new comers aware of some of the "found" bloodlines already out there. I would love to hear from others who may have suggestions on educating people about the differences within the Kiger bloodlines. At least then, buyers would be able to make an educated decision.
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Post by barbhorses on Jan 22, 2009 12:18:09 GMT -5
Dana shared the Kiger report with me as well. I don't have it because I am on a different computer than the one I originally had a ton of photos and info on. My older sister got that computer and she said she erased the hard drive... ughh
The entire report is on the Sulphur HMA and the Chloride HMA. Not really useful to put the Chloride HMA up on a Sulphur web site. It looks like they just took the information pertaining to Sulphurs and put it up there. Oh, and the HMA's are not related just in case someone was curious.
Angel, totally agree with what you said! Bravo! I have seen Kiger Trinket in person who is a "found" horse and she fit right in with all of the other Kigers that were at the Western States Horse Expo in 2003. Actually, the one that didn't look like the rest of the bunch was Kiger Sundance. He was much bigger than the other horses and really heavy in the fore quarters and light in his hind quarters(that is if my memory is serving me correctly). Maybe I can convince my mother to send me the pictures she took of all the Kigers. The other Kigers were not as tall and were thicker in appearance. But the point of this is that Kiger Trinket fit right in. Just like what Michelle said, "Looks like a duck, walks like a duck, then its a duck!!" I see no reason why Kiger Trinket and her offspring should not be considered 100% pure Kiger. She most certainly looks like a Kiger and had that lovely calm disposition.
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Post by barbhorses on Jan 22, 2009 15:47:49 GMT -5
I had another thought that might simplify or complicate the "found" horse issue. IF the BLM was handling that horse in regards to improving the Kiger (doesnt have to have set foot on the HMA to make it a Kiger... that sounds a bit ridiculous) or adding that horse to the HMA, then I see no reason why that horse should not be considered a Kiger. After all, ALL Kigers are found horses. Why should a horse that was considered or set on the Kiger HMAs not also be considered a Kiger? A true found horse should be one that was accepted by a registry without BLM consent or was not in mind by the BLM to be considered being put on the HMA. Those obvious horses would be the horses from Nevada and Utah.
It would be a huge loss (imo) to exclude horses such as Cedar Creek and Chisholm based on that one of their parents was positively known to have not been apart of the herd that was originally put on the Kiger/Riddle HMAs. I don't think that timing here is an issue. As long as the originator of the Kiger breed (the BLM) was considering or put that horse on one of the HMAs it should be considered a purebred Kiger. To say that Cedar Creek or Chisholm don't look like a Kiger or that they are part bred is completely absurd. Granted, I am just using those two horses for now as they are nice looking Kigers and those two just came to mind as I am typing this.
Do you all think this would solve the "found" horse issue? I think that would make things so much simpler.
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Post by canadiankigers on Jan 22, 2009 16:49:12 GMT -5
Barb,
As someone who owns two partial blood Kigers from the Dakota lines, I feel that your term "absurd" is a bit uncalled for. There is NO proof that Dakota ever stepped foot on either Kiger or Riddle HMA nor does the BLM confirm her as being on one of those HMAs. My attempts to confirm this with the BLM have all come up fruitless. If absolute proof from the BLM can be produced that Dakota was excepted by the BLM as a Kiger from one of the two recognized HMAs then I would be willing to revisit that issue but until that time, both Saleen (Chisoms first foal) and Maid N Canada (her daughter) will remain as partial blood Kigers.
Kelly
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Post by barbhorses on Jan 22, 2009 18:53:29 GMT -5
I think that requiring the horse to physically put her/his hooves onto the Kiger/Riddle HMA soil is a bit drastic and seems to have made this whole "found" horse issue more complicated. You said that you can't prove that she set foot on the HMA, BUT did the BLM have her in mind as being a Kiger? If the people that made the breed up in the first place (BLM) accept a horse as a Kiger (no matter if the horse physically stepped foot on the HMAs) then shouldn't they be accepted as a Kiger? It is not like you are messing up the genetics by accepting another horse that came from the same or similar areas that the rest of the Kiger blood comes from. It is not changing the Kiger. At least, that is the way I see it. If the horse looks like a Kiger and the BLM either released or accepted that horse as one that would be kept in mind for the program then I don't see any problems. Of course, that would be case by case. I wouldn't say that someone who felt compelled to adopt a horse from Palomino Butte or the other HMAs that helped to create the Kiger be registered as a Kiger or accepted as one when the BLM never got involved or thought of that horse as being accepted into the Kiger HMA or being adopted out as an acceptable Kiger. Being that the entire breed is made of "found" horses, I see no reason why another "found" horse that is also accepted by the BLM (whether they were released onto the HMA as Kigers or were adopted out with BLM approval as being a Kiger) should be snubbed. This is what I think is absurd: people rejecting Kigers that have BLM approval as being Kigers.
Did Dakota ever have BLM approval? I don't care if she set foot on the HMA. That is no matter. But did the BLM present her as a horse that would be a Kiger? If she was adopted out by the BLM as a horse that would qualify as Kiger, then she is a Kiger. If she was adopted and did not have BLM approval, then she is not a Kiger. Either way, she made some very typey Kiger foals from what I can see.
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Post by kigerfan on Jan 22, 2009 19:15:00 GMT -5
This is always SUCH a heated discussion that can turn so foul. Since the Kiger ancestors came from other HMAs, I agree that they can all be considered 'found' blood. The BLM is basically who created the Kiger 'Breed' by separating out horses from other HMAs that had the Kiger look. Who best to decide if the horse is actually a Kiger, than those who created the breed. I totally agree with you on that point, and I have seen some really beautiful 'Kigers' that have 'found blood' in them. I believe negating their use in the developement of the breed might really be a detriment to the breed itself. That's my personal opinion  |
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Post by barbhorses on Jan 22, 2009 20:24:01 GMT -5
You summed it up!
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Post by sbutter on Jan 22, 2009 21:27:25 GMT -5
I am curious about whether it will be needed in the future to add more "found" blood to negate any "bottleneck" or is what has already happened enough to stop it? If there is already a really bad bottleneck happening, breeders that have usually shunned any kind of "found" blood will have to allow some into there stock so the breed can still improve. Which brings me to another question. What kigers, that have "found" blood in them, have really helped to promote and improve the breed? Both stallions and mares. I do think that it needs to be reinforced that the "found" kigers prove that they are helping to improve the breed and not just be making another horse. Angelsdream hit it head on for me. -Sarah
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Post by kimk on Jan 23, 2009 0:42:03 GMT -5
Oh, please! Now, Kimberlee, I'm not saying this to be mean, but from this statement, obviously you have absolutely no clue about anything to do with Kigers. That is one of the most inaccurate things I have ever read about Kigers. No offense to the owners of Trinket, but I have a lovely little dun Nevada mustang mare who is identical to her, and one can definitely tell the difference. I do wonder if you would have the same opinion if someone said the same thing regarding your Sulphurs. Please do let me know when Kigers begin to quack. |
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Post by barbhorses on Jan 23, 2009 2:55:35 GMT -5
Well, Kigers have such a broad conformation that I do not see how Kiger Trinket cannot be a Kiger. Correct me if I am wrong, but is she not from the one the herds that the Kiger came from? Trinket and many other Kigers remind me (they do not exactly look like. Please do not mistake what I am saying) of a quarter horse. Between her and the other Kigers I saw at that Expo, she looked liked a Kiger. Not all Kigers looks the same. So I learned from looking at many of them. I am not sure what is the true Kiger type from what you are saying?? I have seen !00% pure Kigers. No "found" blood at all that look entirely different than each other. I do not want to sound like I am the expert on the Kiger as I think that I have made it clear that I am not. But how is a person suppose to tell what a Kiger is if they come in so many different styles of conformation? Steens Kiger did not look just like the other Kigers. Just like Kiger Sundance didn't. So, if the Kiger just comes in similar conformation styles (like Kiger Trinket did), then how is someone suppose to say that a horse such as Kiger Trinket isn't a Kiger when an accepted Kiger looks like her?
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