Foundation stallions/horses

[sbutter]

I saw a lot of kigers by Wallowa Kiger on the uskigers directory. People must have really liked him if he had so many foals. Any more info on him? Who are some key foundation kiger stallions and why?
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I had tried to start this question in the stallion thread,but it was probably skipped over....So I will start it here. Who are the foundation horses for the kigers? Who are the kiger stallions that have the most offspring? Should the stallions that bred the most be considered as foundation or should it be strictly quality of offspring regardless of how many foals they had?

[canadiankigers]

That is a very interesting question and I think that the answers you get may be subjective to the feelings, beliefs and goals that people may have for the Kiger breed.

Speaking strickly for the CKMR (Canadian Kiger Mustang Registry) a foundation stallion is one that has been gathered by the BLM from either the Kiger or Riddle HMA and carries a freeze brand number verifying it as such.

In the CKMR we have two foundation catagories. The first is CF1 which stands for "Canadian Foundation first generation." We also have an F1 catagory which signifies Foundation first generation for non Canadian Kiger stallions that are freeze branded and come from either the Kiger or Riddle HMA.

There are a number of freeze branded Kiger stallions that I personally would consider to be foundation, Steens Kiger being one, although I don't feel that the number of offspring determines if a Kiger stallion is foundation or not.

If you are interested in finding freeze branded Kiger stallions, you can go to the Mustang Directory and look through the Kigers listed. The ones with either KHMA or RHMA in the far right column have been verified as freeze branded Kigers coming from either Kiger or Riddle HMA.

If I have forgotten to address your questions or missed anything, please feel free to let me know. I hope my answers helped you.

JMHO,
Kelly

[Chiron - Iberian Horse]

Without having all the information I appears to me (using ENDOG V4.5) that the two "founder" horses that contributed most (genetically) to the population are the stallions Wallowa Kiger and Steens Kiger, followed by Kiger Diamond Rio, El Duc, Kiger Tiger, Cherokee Diamond and Don Sombre, but again, the information I have is rather incomplete.

Ian

[stormyranch]

Ian, that sounds about right. Although we can't really go by that directory alone. It is not complete, as one of my stallions is not listed on there. Because he is not registered I would guess. Although his offspring is listed and he is not registered either, but was on dream horse. I guess that's how he got to be on the list!

S. Butter,
Wallowa Kiger was or is owned by Manford Isley. The reason that he has some many offspring is because Manford owns a very large herd of Kigers. I have heard up wards of 30 plus horses. He does have some very nice offspring out of Wallowa Kiger.

Who are the kiger stallions that have the most offspring? Should the stallions that bred the most be considered as foundation or should it be strictly quality of offspring regardless of how many foals they had?

Definitely strictly on quality of offspring!

Lisa

[canadiankigers]

"Although we can't really go by that directory alone. It is not complete, as one of my stallions is not listed on there"
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The Mustang Directory is a work in progress and is set up so those wishing to submit there horses can. All are more than welcome to do so regardless of weather they are AKHR members or not. The directory was set up as a tool for anyone to use for the purpose of tracing lineage. If you go to www.uskigers.com you can follow the links to the description of how the directory works and to submit your horses information for inclusion in the directory.

[angelsdream]

If people could post there stallions/mares and what they have excelled at or there offspring has excelled at, that could be a start at getting our foundation bloodlines going. We need to know what each stallion/mare are good at and how there temperment is/how easy they were to train/how they react to new things/etc, whether its dressage, endurance, driving, trai, etc. I know some kiger's have a lot more knee action, which makes them smoother and great for dressage. Lakota isn't smooth at all, she's got a rough trot, - although some of it may be because she doesn't extend out when she trots, she's got that short prancy trot. But she is solid as a rock as a trail mount/parade horse. She is a sensitive horse to work with. I can use mostly leg pressure to move her and she is extremely smart, pays attention to my body movements. I haven't been able to work her on cows yet, will do that in spring and see how her cow sense is. But she is a great all round horse and is a pleasure to be around. I believe our bond will just keep getting stronger as time goes by. So I could say that Steens Kiger bloodlines are all of the above - as she is a daughter of his.

This would be a start.

[Michelle Clarke]

Where would stallions that are born out of rounded up mares that conceive in the wild fit? I have always called Charro foundation because he was wild conceived, so I can't trace anything on the top line...maybe I am wrong to do so?

I am not sure how many foals he has sired, I know he was bred quite a bit before I bought him, but to what extent, I am not sure.

In my breeding program, I do call all freezebranded mares foundation as well - they are at least the foundation for our purposes!

[sbutter]

Should we strictly say that foundation horses are horses that were gathered/conceived in the wild? I guess when I think of foundation horses I think of horses that we base are breeding goals/criteria off of. Yes, the kigers that are out of the wild are "foundation" but that obviously doesn't mean that they all should be reproduced. So, should there be two different names to describe foundation (from the wild) and the select few that represent the breed and will be used as a platform to breed from? What stallions are the good foundations for breeding?

[Michelle Clarke]

Those are exactly the questions that are very hard to answer, because what does make them qualified? In my experience, there has been no qualifying standards set for breeding stock...I think maybe the KMA has a scoring system, but when I had no success (years ago - no reflection on what is being done now!) getting my horses registered because there was no one in my area to evaluate the horses.

I think that a qualifying standard should be set. And that rolls right back into putting breeding goals (including a better breed standard) into motion and practice.

[fantasykiger]

I have also always considered wild Kigers foundation stock. But I think there needs to be more to it then that. Should we plan to move forward with the breed in several discipline directions. I think the Foundation Kiger Mustang stallion or mare should come from the correct HMA Kiger or Riddle and be a good example of the original discription of the conformation of the Kiger Mustang as discribed in the Kiger History.

[fantasykiger]

There is a differance between foundation of a breed and foundation of a breeding program be it for conformation type, color or discipline.

[angelsdream]

I think a foundation stallion/mare should be one that is 1) proven to be from one of the 2 HMA's - 2) should prove themselves either thru riding of there own or from the foals they produce 3) have all or most of the charateristics/standards that we set for kigers 4) hold up to the value's that we love about the kigers in the 1st place (ex:friendly, smart, willing, calm) LIke what Sbutter said, just because they are freezebranded from the wild, doesnt mean they should be considered foundation bloodlines - as everyone has said or seen, there are different personalities in all breed's so we wouldnt want to call a horse that is ill tempered, bad conformation, etc a foundation stallion just because it was from the wild and have that stallion throwing foals just like him. There has to be some management to it - that is how the breed will become better, by managing and chosing the best stallions/mare for breeding

[canadiankigers]

Angelsdream:

I really like what you just posted. It gives me cause for pause and makes me think that perhaps the CKMR should redefine it's catagory system. Perhaps all freeze branded mares and stallions from either Kiger or Riddle HMA should be labeled as FB1 until such time as they have met a rigerous criteria. Lets face it, it only makes sense to call the best of the best "foundation stock" After all we are trying to improve the breed. The CKMR motto is "to preserve and promote the Kiger breed through DNA parent verification and responsible breeding practices" to name a few."

So.... if we were to move forward in this direction, what types of challenges, requirements or levels would we want that FB Kiger to qualify at in order to achieve an F1 or CF1 classification?

[Michelle Clarke]

I think that at minimum (besides a conformation score), a stallion should have to present a short video of a) being handled B) ground worked and/or c) ridden. This will at least give an idea of movement and more importantly, disposition. Lets' face it, you cannot tell anything worth while about a horses' disposition and trainabilty unless you get it gentled and work with it. If you have a stallion that cannot be handled in a calm manner, then I would hardly belive it should be bred.

This will at least be a starting point and the videos are easy to do and upload onto YouTube or something easy. A short 5 minute video, nothing fancy.

Having something like this to qualify mares would be great too. This way no everyone has to actually ride them, but at least be gentle and calm enough to be handled. There could easily be different catagories like Pre-Mare Book, Main Mare Book, Premium Mare Bood and Elite Mare Book. Obviously, there would be different requirements for each and for moving up.

[DianneC]

Since the foals they produce is the ultimate goal of having a foundation line category then I think they should produce at least 5 foals for a stallion and three for a mare that are judged to be foundation quality as well. Question is, who is going to do the judging? At what age?