Foundation stallions/horses

[canadiankigers]

Lisa:

I have to tell you just how important the accomplishments that you and Kevin have achieved with Dino are. You both have every right to be very proud of your boy. It is obvious that y'all have done SO MUCH to bring him to the level of training he is at right now.

What you both have done with Dino is exactly what I envision for the breed some day. Thanks so much for posting the pictures and video of Dino.

Kelly

[Michelle Clarke]

I picked this picture to use because it is close up and shows the hind leg flat, even though he is not stood up and square. Take into consideration some skewing because his hip is closer than the shoulder...the above lines are basically what I look at personally when sizing up a horse.

Breed standard requirements in blue

Shoulder and Withers

FOREHAND: Long shoulder at 45-50 degree slope, blending smoothly with well tapered withers. The withers are slightly higher than the point of the hip; well defined but not prominent. This is a good definition of the shoulder and wither. Dino actually has a shoulder angle right at 45 degrees - which I like. Alot of spanish type horses will have a straighter shoulder. That in itself might be a fault, but it all depends on the length and angle of the bone that comes from the point of the shoulder down to the elbow.

It also depends on where the leg sits under the shoulder. I have seen some Iberian conformation standards that say the leg should be toward the front of the shoulder. In my experience, this is back to arab influence and causes balance issues...such as the leg not setting straight, but the feet closer under the body for support (see the Arab type Andalusian in the Kiger Type thread). I have seen horses with this trait, and they tend to have alot of seperation of the hoof wall and sole at the toe; stress on the pastern and knee and even stress on the splint bones to where they have a hard time fusing (the splint bone finishes fusing to the cannon bone about 7 years of age).

"A" on the above pict shows the nice shoulder angle. "B" shows that the leg comes out from the center of that shoulder line (even though he is standing off to graze). Both very good. His wither most definately has shape, but does not stick out alone it flows nicely from the neck and into the back - great for holding a saddle. The wither sets above the point of the hip (this pict is skewed, but in other picts, his wither sets higher too). This is an Iberian trait. It is actually a fault in the spanish horse (in some breed standards). An uphill horse collects easier, is easier to sit and has a nice elevated front end when they are educated.



Forelegs should be moderately spaced with an inverted V appearance, however, without giving appearance of bulky chest muscling. The second part of the sentence, I am assuming they are referring too overly developed muscling like a QH....Dino has a very nice chest, his legs are set nicely, straight down the center line from top to bottom and no appearance of splints. On his right front, you might be able to see evidence of an old one higher up on the canon bone. But again, we are talking about wild horses that stress their legs, especially stallions. There are a few reasons for splints. One can be stress and causes the body to send extra calcium there, forming a deposit between the fiberous "wrap" around the splint bone and the bone itself; it can be a kick from another horse (our colts play so hard that we do see them once in awhile. In older horses, it can be that the splint bone is having a hard time fusing to the cannon bone and causes deposits. The biggest one I have seen with the spanish horses is a deposit from a large imbalance in the calcium/phosporous ratio. The body has so much excess calcium (or silica), it drops it on the splint bone because that is a place where it is needed later on anyway. I see this in alot of weanlings and horses under two. Another place it likes to deposit is on the ribcage.

Another thing to look at is the knee and under. The cannon bone should be the same distance wide at the pastern as the bottom of the knee. Hard to tell in these picts, but it seems as if the leg may tie in slightly thinner at the knee than the pastern. This would be a deduction, but it is slight, so not a big one...maybe a point or two. The "two" would be (IMO), is the pisiform bone at the back of the knee (the little bump you see back there), were flatter. You want a large pisiform because that shows how the tendons tie into the knee. I would say Dino is medium here.

The tendons should be distinct in the legs, easy to see and tell apart. From these picts, I cannot really tell (though in other picts they look defined), so overall, I would say a 1 point deduction in this area of the front legs: based on the tying in at the knee and the medium pisiform.

I am also not concerned with the fact that his left front foot may appear to be turned ever so slightly out....he is obviously in "winter/pasture" state, and not show trimmed and stood up. If I were a judge and saw this in the ring, I would watch the way he moved to determine if it was just a trimming thing or a fault.

The first part of the sentence of the Breed Standard, I have issue with. I belive it comes from the fact that they are calling it the wrong thing. An inverted V is a species fault. It is usually coupled with a narrow chest, which then sets the front legs closer together and causes imbalance. I do not belive this is what was meant. In my opinion, this needs to be changed. This is one statement that makes it hard for other organizations to accept the Kiger.

Dinos' chest has a peak to it, but it is in no way what I would consider and inverted V....his chest shows nice muscling, without being bulky. However, based on the Breed Standard, his chest is not what is stated, so I guess I should deduct a point....

Muscles in the shoulder and forearm should be long and lean. Viewed from the front, legs should be correct; viewed from the side, legs should be wide and lean. Discussed above...

So far the scoring would be:

Head and Neck 10
Shoulder and withers (including the chest here) 9
Legs (so far only the front, legs are scored together and over all) 9

[angelsdream]

WOW Michelle. This is exactly what we need. Like others on here, I don't know a lot about conformation, so this is really helpful.

The diagram really makes sense, but are we looking just a kiger conformation or is this in general for all horses?

[kigerfan]

That was truly awesome, very helpful. If you got more side, front, rear pictures, of other horses, would you continue to diagram them out for us so we may learn more from it?

[JoanMRK]

I would like to submit photos of Sunnie, it sounds like fun. This is very helpful and very interesting!

[Michelle Clarke]

I look at conformation from a balanced, versatile, usable view. Of course, I do have more experience with the spanish type horses...! I have studied alot of horses used for Classical training, plus horses very high up in Reining, such as Jack Brainards horses. Different breeds and disciplines have their own looks or needs. To compete well in todays' dressage market, you need a more rectangular horse (with a slightly longer back and more open angles in the shoulder and hip for extention). There are always the horses that have perfect conformation, yet don't perform...and then those that have substandard conformation, that are just incredible - that is why you look at both static conformation, then how the horse comes together and uses himself and lastly - heart and desire to do the job.

With that said, it is funny how when you talk to someone about different breeds/disciplines and what they need, that many things are similar. I was surprised at the picts and info of the thoroughbreds that were posted - I had a very different view of how they should be built. Probably because I have never been around a top of the game race horse! I learned alot.

I think it would be fun to do more horses after we finish Dino. A good side shot, then one from the front and one from the back is usually sufficient.

[Michelle Clarke]

Belly and sides

BARREL: The body conformation of the Kiger Horse is distinctive, with a deep chest, short back, broad and moderately muscled. The barrel is oval, with well-sprung ribs, and a full flank. The sternum should not protrude.



Ideally, the ribcage of a horse should be elliptical shaped and when viewed from the top, should be narrower near the shoulders, then expand slightly as it goes back. This is called the "riders groove". It is the perfect place for your legs to sit. Sprung ribs are round ribs like an arab or draft. They are hard to sit because it is like sitting on a barrel. It spreads your thighs far apart and shortens the distance between your seat bones, thereby not only perching yourself on top of the horse, intsead of sitting around it, but digging them into the horses' back. It also makes you have to fight to keep constant (light) contact with your full inner thigh and knee. You'll see alot of folks that it makes the knees always pop out away from the horse - this is sometimes caused by the horse having a big, round ribcage.

This also makes it difficult to fit a saddle on and keeping it from rolling from side to side. Many times you have to overtighten a cinch to keep the saddle in place. From what I can see from the Kigers, is that they do not have a sprung ribcage..it is not slab sided either - which is good. I think agian, the wrong wording has been used.

The depth of the girth as compared to the depth of the flank should not be equal, but turn slightly up at the flank. Dino is perfect here. I am not sure what is meant by a full flank, most likely not caved in and shallow - agian, not a problem with this horse. The sternum (which is the first rib in the frontend of the horse), does not stick out in front of the chest like I have seen in some Saddlebreds and Thoroughbreds. This is more of an eye appeal thing than a functional thing. I cannot think of anything that would be affected by the sternum being too forward.

The belly should not be distended and ideally, I have been told, should not be seen when viewing the horse from the back. Now, in my experience, sweet feed (which has 10 lbs. of water per 50 lb. bag) puts a distended belly on a horse, along with low quality hay and lots of grazing on very wet type grasses. Bellies also get distended when the back is weak or not developed properly. I don't see this as a problem in the Kiger breed in general.

Personally, I see a horse that is very good here, except again, I should probably deduct a point for not having "sprung ribs" even though this is a fault in my book...

Back

There is little definition in the KHAR for the back, except "short back, broad and moderately muscled."....in other breed standards, this accounts for not just 1 point of interest, but it is so important, it counts for 1.5. It is so important because that is where you sit and from wence all that is good starts and then bridges from!

Personally, I don't like to see the back drop alot after the wither and then go back up to the hip. I see this as already a downward "stress" on the spine. This also means you have to get a saddle that does not have a flat tree, but a more "banana" shaped tree.

I like a flat back coming down from the wither and going straight into the hip. A very flat back coupled with an overly short back tend to be stiff and easy for the horse to lock up. You see this with alot of gaited type breeds (a horse gaits because they lock the back - when you relax the back or the horse is lazy, they trot). They come with their own challenges to train. A flat, medium back is best as it give more flexiblity in the spine and also more area for the saddle.

As far as the shape of the back from the top, Iberian breeds are supposed to be "roof" shaped, with the spine to highest point. Not heavily muscled and not wide. Sport horse judges want a crease in the back/hip to show heavy/strong muscle.

More later......I hope this makes sense because I do not have time to proof read it right now!

[Michelle Clarke]

Croup/Hindquarters

HINDQUARTER: The hind legs should be squarely set and so placed that the Kiger Horse turns on his hindquarters with ease. I am not exactly sure this really lends anything in regards to how this should acutally look...it leaves alot open for interpretation. "squarely set" does not tell me anything except maybe it means the hind legs should not be sickle hocked or maybe not camped out behind?? I'm not sure. The second part of the sentence is also left up to interpretation and you need to know what that is supposed to look like - and you'll get varying descriptions depending on who you ask...

Ideally, when the horses' hind legs are underneath him and the cannon bone is straight, the hock should lineup along the same plane, as in "E". In other picts of Dino, that is the case - this pict he is not standing straight.

If the cannons are straight and they set behind that line (camped out), it is a structural weakness and will cause issues along the back especially. If the hocks are in line, but he hindlegs are forward under the body mass (sickle hocked), then that is another weakness in not only the hock itself, but the whole hip. The horse stands that way to carry his body mass as compenstation.

The hips should be lightly rounded, with croup sloped gently with medium-low set tail. This is a good description, though the tail set thing is confusing and mixing "breeding" if you will. When viewed from the side, the tail should flow with the line of the croup. A low set tail will not, it will sort of sit "under" and is associated with alot of the spanish gaited type horses. A low set tail is usually not indicative of a balanced horse

If you look at the triangle I put on in the hip, ideally, it should go straight from the point of the hip, down to the stifle, then peak at the point of the buttock and join back up to make an even triangle. Agian, this pict of Dino is off, so the triangle is not even...This usually makes for a balanced hindend that is evenly built. A low tail set usually has a lower point of hip, throwing that balance off.

When the hind is built like this...like for alot of spanish gaited horses; the legs have a greater amount of reach under the horse. What lacks is extention behind the hip. So in essence, the horses' hind legs come more forward than they do out behind. When you have a flatter croup and the tail is set higher, like an arab, the legs have more "swing" out behind the horse and do not come underneath the mass of the horse as well....a balanced hip, with the tail medium set, usually denotes a nice eveness in the swing of the hind legs; they will come under the horse just as much as they will swing behind. You will see this in alot of warmblood types too - which gives them greater extention, but not so great collection.

The spanish/iberian type horses usually have the angle and lower (not low like gaited, though that is possible) tail set/differing angles that give them more drive and natural collection. This is why they do not do as well in the extended gaits you see with the warmbloods in dressage. When a horse is built to collect more, the back feet come under and pull the horse foward and drive the front end up and out. When they have more extented angles/gaits, the power comes from a push before the foot leaves the ground (usually directly under the hip) propelling the body mass forward and out. Not much flexion in the legs joints, more flat moving.

The other big difference is the feet should hit flat in a spanish horse in most instances. That is the way they are designed to move due to the angles in the skeletal system. The arab/thoroughbred types are meant to hit the ground heel/toe to cover distance.

Muscles in the hip and thigh should be long and lean. The hocks should be wide, deep and clean. This is a good description and is generally saying they don't want heavy bulk like a QH. They are looking for large, well formed hocks, another good description. "clean" most likely refers to not having caps (swollen hocks), holding fluid or being too fleshy looking.



Viewed from the rear, the hind legs are usually closer at the hocks than the fetlocks, but not to the extreme. This is where I have a problem, because this is a species fault. Hocks that come in are weaker, take more stress and turn the back feet out. They can lack impulsion and drive. While this is probably common in the breed, it should not be a Standard of Perfection, and needs to be worded differently. Just because the Kigers have that in general, does not mean is should be desirable. This is another one that gets us in trouble with other associations/ registries.

In any other breed, this should be a fault, but we can't deduct Dino for it because it fits in with the Breed Standard. Dino does turn in some, but not much at all.

[stormyranch]

Wow Michelle,
That is really interesting. I love to hear how comformation lends to how the horse moves. Dino is definetly flat footed. I have found all of this very informative.
Thank you,
Lisa

[canadiankigers]

Michelle:

This is so wonderful, thanks for taking the time to post all of this information it has really helped me to better understand the relationship between movement and conformation.
Kelly

[DianneC]

Super stuff Michelle. This is so valuable, and thanks Kevin and Lisa for letting us look at your beautiful boy. A question to clarify ...
"If you look at the triangle I put on in the hip, ideally, it should go straight from the point of the hip, down to the stifle, then peak at the point of the buttock and join back up to make an even triangle. Agian, this pict of Dino is off, so the triangle is not even..."

Could you define point of the buttock for me? I see that your line follows the angle of his hip, but would the point of the buttock be just inside the farthest back point (Where E touches)? Or maybe that is changed because he is stepping forward with that foot? I love looking at the angles of the hip.
I'd be interested in hearing about the length and angle of the gaskin and how that plays into movement too. For some reason that part of the horse facinates me.

[Michelle Clarke]

Thanks...I enjoy this type of thing and conformation and how it applies to movement has always fascinated me. Since I do chiropractic, stress point therapy among some other stuff, I am constantly amazed at how quickly something can be fixed up when all the parts are working right. The best time I ever had was when I went to JPs' once and he would ride a horse and tell me what was not working. I would make an adjustment and then he would ride off and test it right away to be fixed. It was great to have that kind of confirmation on the spot. He had a six year old horse in for lessons that would not take the lead change on one side in the back. I released an adhesion that he had from being gelded and he went right off and did four lead changes in a row with no problem - it was so cool! Anyway, sorry for the digression!



Here is a pict of Dino I picked to show another interesting point to look at, even though he is not perfectly square - you get the idea. It is said that a balanced horse will fit into a trapaziod. The shoulder angle and hip angle will be the same when flipped. There will be a straight line from the top of these angles that meet - top of wither to top of hip. They will also meet at the bottom in a straight line - point of shoulder to point of buttocks. The only problem I see with this is that if the horse is heavily muscled along the top of the hip, that could throw it off. Plus if you are looking at a naturally uphill horse (where the wither is higher than the hip anyway) that line could be off to. Personally, I want the hip and shoulder angle to mirror each other as in the trapaziod, I am not so picky on the top and bottom lines, depending on what I am looking for. Even then, that is a matter of what I want the horse for. If I wanted a horse to do alot of high school training with natural ability for the airs above ground, I might want a little more open shoulder for upward reach and flexion; while the hind I might want a sharper angle for more drive and power to push upward.

What I like about the Kigers is that they really are consistant in having those same angles in the shoulder and in the hip. I see alot of QH and lower end Thoroughbreds that have different angles.

Total impression of Type

OVERALL IMPRESSION: The Kiger Horse is “baroque” in nature due to its round body contours with the neck arising from the top of the shoulder giving them an elegant, collected stance. The Kiger Horse should be balanced in proportions and should move with ease and without wasted energy. The Kiger Horse, on one hand, should give an impression of strength without being bulky while, on the other, should not be so refined as to convey frailty or extreme refinement.

This is a good paragraph, but does not imply anything spanish in reality. There are other breeds considered Baroque - like the Friesan....and have nothing really to do with spanish. The use of the word "round" is good, except I see folks in other baroque type breeds take this as meaning FAT! Funny thing is, when you look up the word baroque in association with horse, you get most definitions like "heavy muscled" "thick neck" "compact" "thickset" "strong bodied" "agile"...so maybe this word could be misleading when used with the Kigers. Personally, I don't see them as baroque in general, though it seems to be something that pops up every once and awhile...like my junior stallion Desi. But I think he is not the norm as far as alot of Kigers go.

In my opinion, the Kiger as a whole, needs a better Type description. The Kiger is definately unique unto itself. I find them a combination of Spanish/iberian types. While it is debated be many of the Kigers not being so close to those types by other factors, they follow many many traits of those type of horses, including typical physiological aspects, being prone to the same health complaints/issues (such as EMS) and morphology development.

[Chiron - Iberian Horse]

Just a little note to the term "foundation" horse.

The term "founding animals" of a breed or studbook are generally used for those animals that have no known ancestors.

They are the animals that have been accepted as belonging to the breed (= conform to the breed description) that figure at the beginning of all pedigrees of the breed.
Typically these founding animals are the ones that were captured in the wild.

[kigermustang1]

I just found this topic while exploring the board and I feel it's very interesting. My foal will be registered in the CKMR and if it's a colt, I would like to think that the papers are worth more than just the ink it takes to print them.

Michelle, you had some great suggestions, can you elaborate on them?
(ie) "Pre-Mare Book, Main Mare Book, Premium Mare Book and Elite Mare Book" and the videos you mentioned for the stallions.

[sbutter]

This really goes well with the saddle horse conformation thread.

As far as the different mare categories, it could be a system that other breeds use to categorize the quality of mares. It can be based off of different angles of what the mare looks like, what she passes on, a combination of both and then elite would be the "ideal" mare. The lower rungs can be worked through and maybe there are a couple stipulations where a mare meets a certain "tentative" status until she proves herself through her offspring. If she throws sub-par foals, she may be knocked down to a lower level, but if they are better than her, they can push her up to a higher status. Basically you can get creative with the idea of the different "levels" and what the horse has to accomplish to achieve that status. People may not like the idea of a horse losing their status, so you have to figure out how you would want the different categories to function.