Foundation stallions/horses

[sbutter]

I was just thinking about how to judge the offspring too. Should they be judged multiple times (as they grow) or just once? If they are judged only once, what age would be the best since you want them to look their best and not in an awkward growth spurt. Even within the breed, some horses are slower maturing than others. At the same time, you don't want to have a mare produce five foals and then her oldest is of age to be judged and find out that they are all of low caliber. So it would be good to have a sneak peak when they are young so you at least have an idea of what she throws, before she has five carbon copies running around.

[canadiankigers]

I think both Dianne and Michelle have excellent points but I personally would like to take it a step further. I would llike the stallion to have (at the least) some sort of show record. We already have Kigers competeing in western and dressage successfully (that I know of) and I am sure there are more out there. As for the mares I think if they are going to be bred as "F1 or CF1, they too should have the same demands placed upon them. The final test being the production of foals and their quality both as foals and in future as working/performance horses.

[angelsdream]

Yes I think the problem "has been" and "will be" coming up with the standard, the rule book, the criteria, point system or whatever you want to call it. It's hard to get everyone to agree - so Id say take the majority vote and go on with it. I mean, let's face it, you can see from the past that we're never going to get everyone to agree 100% on everything.

I agree that the mares should be held to the same standards as stallions. I think the mare has just as much influence on the outcome of the foal as the stallion does, if not more.

Let's not only look at conformation for being the standard to judge a horse by but also look at personality and ability to be trained (just to name a few). Yes conformation is very important but with each discipline comes different conformation needs. Right? Im still learning about conformation so anyone correct me if Im wrong.

Yes Kelly, I believe we should only call the best of the best "foundation" and only after proving they are. Just because they hold that freeze brand, does not make them foundation. Our foundation bloodlines should be the "best" in all aspects. Although coming up with the way to prove that they are is going to be a challenge for everyone.

[Michelle Clarke]

A show record would be great, but at this point, I think it is limiting. Number one, you have wild stallions that may be older and more difficult to finish for showing. Number two, you have breeders (in this economy especially) that would have a hard time paying for a professional trainer and showing. Then you have the issue of a 4H show or an "A" circuit show? Big difference. I think that there should be a goal of some sort of showing at some point, but not required.

There could be tests that can cover a variety (and maybe different levels) of skills that someone can do themselves or locally without all the huge expenses by again, submitting a video. This is something that will be utilized in other foundations/associations that I know of.

Here is an example that others are using:

First, a conformation evaluation. The specific body parts are scored on a scale of 1-10. A horse is allowed two scores of a 6; three 6's is disqualification. If anything part is 5 or lower, the horse is not qualified. This also helps breeders in choosing the right crosses. For example, a stallion that scores 6-7 on legs should be bred to mares with 8-10.

Then movement. A same scoring system based on specifics - like each gait, transitions, etc. This does not have to be riding, can be based on a triangle for walk/trot then a circle for canter.

Temperment is also given an overall score.

This is a baseline for every horse. It can work on a "class" system that they can move up in or a "star" system.

Some breeds "inscribe" foals/yearlings/weanlings. Meaning they pass conformation and walk/trot movement (the walk tells you about the canter, so no need at that age to develop that). After the age of four, they are re-evaluated more closely and obviously can do riding, etc. and be accepted and permanent scores given. There are ways to measure angles/lengths and predict whether a foal will mature in set parameters.

Then breeding quality animals need to be scored also on their get. Stallions should produce x amount of foals with scores over x. Mares the same. If a mare produces x amount of foals that score lower than say 7, then she should be changed to another stallion. If she produces one more substandard foal, then her foals should no longer be able to be accepted.

As far as judging, it should be a combined score by a few people. Those people cannot judge their own horses/foals obviously. Either that, or an outside entity (with no affiliation) should be paid to do so. I know of one person that is very knowledgable that has already agreed to do this for us.

Just some ideas...

[canadiankigers]

I feel that this is a very productive thread and that a lot of great points have been made!!!!

Michelle, I do agree with your ideas but I still feel that some sort of show career or work career is essential. I know that many people (especially in this economy) cannot afford the time or the money it takes to train show and promote a single horse, but we do need some sort of proving ground within some sort of recognized discipline.

Perhaps something like what the CKMR is doing with Wild Horse Run Productions. I also feel that in lou of this perhaps said Kiger could prove it'self as a working cow horse either in the show ring or on the farm. A video of it's everyday duties could be used in the video as part of it's goal to achieve it's ability to be recognized as a beeding Kiger. I know this will take much more discussion and a lot more work, but it is a worthy cause and NEEDS TO BE DONE!! If we are going to be taken seriously in the horse world we need to do something now rather than later!

[Michelle Clarke]

Kelly, I do totally agree with you and I think what you are planning up your way is GREAT!! I really want to hear more about it and I think there needs to be some sort of events that can challenge any horse equally and puts them all on common proving ground. I would be very interested in seeing this develop.

On that note, a competition called Working Equitation (you can google it for more info) is the next up and coming horse sport in the US. It is popular over in Europe and Brazil and is totally geared toward the spanish type horse (JP actually came up with it years and years ago). There is a big push here in the US for it to come about. It is based on versatility and I belive it could be a perfect things for the Kigers to excel at.

[canadiankigers]

Thanks for the heads up Michelle, it sounds like something I may not only want to include in the show but establish here in Canada. I will definately be researching that!!!! Can I give you a call later today? I would love to discuss this further!!!!

[stormyranch]

I really like these ideas and would like to submit Dino as a test subject to be judged by whoever wants to. That way we can see if this will work and what we would need to change.
I have been compliling photos and videos to submit here. I also have most of his accomplishments written down. His get has not done anything yet (They are still young). I am not a GOOD photographer or videoographer. My husband has the talent. So bear with the quality, just do the best you can. I have never been able to take a good conformation picture of Dino.

1. First, a conformation evaluation. The specific body parts are scored on a scale of 1-10. A horse is allowed two scores of a 6; three 6's is disqualification. If anything part is 5 or lower, the horse is not qualified. This also helps breeders in choosing the right crosses. For example, a stallion that scores 6-7 on legs should be bred to mares with 8-10.












2. Then movement. A same scoring system based on specifics - like each gait, transitions, etc. This does not have to be riding, can be based on a triangle for walk/trot then a circle for canter.



3. Temperment is also given an overall score.
Well, let's just say it's very good!



Just found this one and had to ad it. ;D




4. A show record would be great, but at this point, I think it is limiting. Number one, you have wild stallions that may be older and more difficult to finish for showing. Number two, you have breeders (in this economy especially) that would have a hard time paying for a professional trainer and showing. Then you have the issue of a 4H show or an "A" circuit show? Big difference. I think that there should be a goal of some sort of showing at some point, but not required.


2003 Shows COMO Spring Open & Mustang Show 2003
• Amateur Rider High Point
• Reserve High Point Green Horse
• 1st & 2nd Places English & Western Ridding
Salt Lake City Wild Horse Show
• Pleasure High Point English
• Reserve Halter Champion
• 1st & 2nd Places English & Western Ridding
Pacific Wild Horse Club Show
• Reserve High Point
• Reserve Halter Champion
• 1st & 2nd Places English & Western Ridding
Kigerfest 2003
• High Point Kiger Stallion
• High Point Novice Kiger
• High Point Mustang
Oregon State Fair
• Reserve High Point Mustang
2004 Shows

COMO Spring Open & Mustang Show
Kigerfest 2004
1st & 2nd Places English & Western
High Point Sr. Rider Kiger

Salt Lake City Wild Horse Show
High Point Sr. Horse Kiger
Reserve Halter Champion High Point Amateur Rider Kiger
1st & 2nd Places English & Western Ridding
Oregon State Fair
Pacific Wild Horse Club Show Reserve Halter Champion
Reserve Halter Champion 1st & 2nd Places English & Western Ridding
1st & 2nd Places English & Western Ridding Reserve High Point Amateur Rider (NW Mustang Buckle Series2004)
Reserve High Point Amateur Rider
2005 Shows

7th Annual Utah Wild Horse & Burro Festival Western States Wild Horse & Burro Expo
3rd placed Lesley Neuman Trail Challenge Open Adult
1st & 2nd Places English & Western Ridding 2nd placed Freestyle

High point English horse.

Reserve Halter Champion
(He would have won except for the back foot!)






Coos County Fair
Champion Grand Champion Halter Stallion

Pacific Wild Horse Club Show
1st & 2nd Places English & Western Ridding
1st Place Lead line (4yr. old)

Kigerfest 2005
High Point Mustang Sr. Horse Grand Champion Halter Stallion Open
Grand Champion Halter Stallion Reserve Grand Champion Halter Stallion Kiger
1st Place English & Western Ridding Kiger All Around High Point Sr. Rider Open
1st Place English & Western Ridding Mustang High Point Sr. Horse Open
Oregon State Fair High Point Sr. Horse Kiger
1st Place Lead line (4yr. old)

2003 Albany Expo with Pacific Wild Horse Club
Invited by BLM as Demonstration horse at the 2003 Kiger Adoption in Burns, Oregon
Carried the American flag at the opening for Kigerfest 2004.

On the poster for the 7th Annual Utah Wild Horse & Burro Festival

Sacramento Exposition 2005 with KMA

Cranberry festival Parade Bandon, Oregon
I still need to ad 2006-2008

5. Then breeding quality animals need to be scored also on their get. Stallions should produce x amount of foals with scores over x. Mares the same. If a mare produces x amount of foals that score lower than say 7, then she should be changed to another stallion. If she produces one more substandard foal, then her foals should no longer be able to be accepted.
2002 Filly: Dino's Peach/Peaches-Kiger/mustang


2004 gelding Dino's Keno-Kiger/mustang

2008 Filly Dulce-Kiger/mustang


Let me know what or if I need to ad anything
Lisa

[canadiankigers]

On that note, a competition called Working Equitation (you can google it for more info) is the next up and coming horse sport in the US.

Michelle:

I had a chance to surf the net for working equitation and found a rule book for it. So as not to take away from this thread, I opened up another thread under training so we could discuss the advantages of how a class of this type might be able to benefit the Kiger.

Lisa:

I am the last person you would want to critique a horse as I still have a lot to learn in that area but I would like to say that you and Kevin have done a phenominal job of training and promoting Dino. I wish that I had the time to do that with Shelby. I am eager to see some of the videos you spoke of and look forward to viewing them when you have had a chance to post them.

[kigerfan]

I would love to see a mare conformation thread too where we can get some comments on that.

I agree that it can be very hard to come up with the money for professional training and showing. Especially at these times.

I'm waiting to read some of the conformation comments on Dino. I have ideas of my own, but I'm certainly no expert.

[stlkigers]

Lisa and Kevin:

That's one WILD looking stallion.....Hehehe....He appears asleep in several photos....Great proof of his awesome demeanor.....

Angela

[Michelle Clarke]

Lynn and I were just talking this morning that one of the best things that set the Kigers apart is the Versatility...Dino is the BEST example I know of in this area and I think he should be considered a Hallmark in the breed. This is exactly what we need to do with these horses. Take them out and show how versatile they can be.

Bravo Kevin and Lisa!

I know there are other people out there that do alot with their Kigers - we need to hear about it!

Lisa, thanks for jumping in here. I am anxious to look at everything tonigt when I have more time. One thing to post would be a front pict showing legs, chest, head; rear shot showing hip, legs, hocks, tail set.

[Michelle Clarke]

As far as judging for the point system, when looking at each component - first look at faults that are species faults....like the cannon bone coming out of the side of the knee, a ewe neck, sickle hocks, etc. To me, those things should be penalized the most. Then look at breed faults as outlined in the breed standard.

Since Lisa was so kind to put picts of Dino up, we can use him as an example.

Head and neck

As far as species faults: I don't notice anything wrong with his head. It comes into his neck well and it's overall attractive. His neck is not too thick; his crest has not fallen (common in spanish breeds, especially if you let the stallions get fat as some point - one they get too fat, the neck builds up and then if they loose weight, it falls); his neck sits well into his shoulder with a definate angle - the neck and shoulder do not run into eachother. In most pictures, Dinos' neck is held at a natural level to his shoulder.

I would not take any points off. Following is the Breed Standard as noted by the KHAR (I would have used the KMA, but since the website has been redone, I can't get on it at all...). I am in NO WAY picking on the KHAR....I actually have an issue with every Kiger breed standard I've ever seen (surprise!). Requirements in blue.

HEAD: Medium in size, clean cut and tapering slightly from jaw to muzzle. Head should be balanced and not overly refined. My guess is the last sentence means the head should have no noticable parts that stand out...and overly refined would be more like an Arab...I belive Dino would pass these.

The profile side view can be straight, slightly sub-concave, or slightly sub-convex. I have a problem with this because there is basically no ideal. My opinion is that it should just state nothing. The biggest thing to remember, is that a Breed Standard it your IDEAL...not ever horse is going to measure up in every area. If they did, you would have the perfect horse...and I have never known a horse to score 100% on any conformation exam. Average is in the 80's.

Wide, clean cut lower jaw, medium fine muzzle with small and firm lips and medium nostrils. I have a problem with this too. Above it states the head should not be refined, but a fine muzzle of medium size is ideal...Then it says firm lips. Dino is a pretty relaxed guy and his lips are kind of loose...like alot of spanish type horses!! Some folks say this is "draft" influence. However, IMHO, this can happen when a horse grazes alot. The lips are muscle, when they are used alot, they get more developed. It is also my opinion that this is why some Kigers develop a larger looking muzzle. When a horse is relaxed and calm, his lips are not tight and firm....

Ears should be medium in length, hooked at the tips on the inside and set wide apart and carried alert. Again, I belive Dino is just fine in the area, though "hooked" ears are an Arab trait. Yes, the modern spanish horses may have hooked ears, but agian, that goes back to the arab influence. Personally, I don't belive the Kigers ears are overly hooked. Many have traditional iberian type "roof" shaped ears, that just have a small tip. Very hooked ears actually turn back when viewed from the side - like an arab.

NECK: Medium length, arched, clean at the throatlatch, joined smoothly at the shoulder and deep at the point of the shoulder. Agian, Dino is just fine in all these areas.

So far, I would not deduct any points from Dino - either species faults or Breed Standards. If you were really really picky, you could fault his muzzle - a half point maybe! But because his nostril shape is a traditional iberian/spanish "S" shape...he should get an extra point in my book!

I don't claim to be an expert...these are just my opinions - I would love to hear if anyone sees something different!

[stormyranch]

Michelle,
I posted some new pictures I took today. Is this what you meant? And a video, Kelly.

I have to agree with your assements. I find the Kiger breed standards too flat. They really don't say much.

Lisa

[kigerfan]

I just love the picture where he's peeking around behind him. The video clip was awesome too!