Grey agian, sorry!

[nrly]

unregistered German Shepard cause of color, undesirable this or that cause of color, what a sad state we live in when it is color not capabilities that decides if it is good enough or not to be papered.
nola

[kigerfan]

I don't disagree with you. I have seen some really gorgeous black German Shepherd Dogs. The whites I believe I heard had some inherent problems, though I don't remember for sure. I got out of breeding/showing etc. for two reasons. The 'conformation quality' American German Shepherd Dog has morphed into something that could never work long hours. It has a long back, it's hip is rediculously set and the back legs 'paddle' because of it. My dogs were more of the German lines and I refused to put out something that was guaranteed to have hip displaysia at some point just because of the set if the hip that they actually BREED for. The top line of an American German Shepherd Dog is like a steep incline, the hips are set low. To me, this is the most unuseble dog there is. That's why most Police and other service dogs do not come from the American lines. The other reason is that to many of the wrong people wanted them. I always interviewed people for about two hours before I would sell them one of my pups, but with everything all tolled, it became not worth it to me.

[fantasykiger]

There is a split in registries as to whether or not the Kiger Mustang should indeed be a color based breed or a HMA based breed and just recently a type/based on conformation and characteristics breed. This is in part my opinion to why there is so many registries. With each new passionate vioce developes a new registry. A few years back I jokingly told Rick I want o have the gray Kiger registry, sense everyone seems to get a registry of their own. In truth that is not what I want at all, I would love to see one great registry. I know that is not going to happen anytime soon. I don't need to join a new registry my gray kigers are excepted with most, as they are half Kigers. If I purchased a gray Kiger it would be excepted in a few Kiger registries that are out there, so it would have papers as of such. Being a breeder of crossbreds and colored horses I know you can just about register anything these days.
So having registration papers is nice and all, I am begining to think is not the most imprtant point of a registry. The fact that they support the members, the breed and do everything they can to promote the breed to the public is what is priority.

[kigerfan]

supporting and promoting the breed, BIG things for sure. Every year when I watch the Rose Parade I think how very cool it would be to see a riding unit of Kiger Mustangs in it!

[desperatehorsewife]

This little bit I pulled off this website (which Dianne listed in another post) www.gremlanfarms.com/conformation.shtml

I think it's something that needs to be taken to heart when starting any breed registry or considering breeding. I've already stated my opinion on breeding; most people are irresponsible regardless of their good intentions. Not bad people, just not really as selective as they ought to be.

AMERICAN EQUINE BREEDERS OF ANDALUSIANS

Equine breeders whose horses are registered in the International Andalusian and Lusitano Horse Association Registry, have an awesome responsibility in North America. In comparison with other countries, these minority breeders of “Pura Raza Española” (P.R.E.) and Puro Sangue Lusitano (P.S.L.) in the United States of America, must continue to preserve, protect and promote the genetic integrity and breeding standards for these ancient and historically significant pure bred horses.

If Kigers were never intended to be gray; if Ron spent the last of his days trying to clear it out, then that, IMO, needs to be respected. Personally, I wouldn't expect any offspring, regardless of whether or not they're born dun, to be registered. The point of limiting the gray (and brown and bay) registration is to stop the continuation of those genetics being passed down.

Now, say you've got an off color horse who's absolutely exceptional in every way, there's no reason it can't be shown in open shows, earn points, make it's mark. If you're thinking he/she's going to produce an awesome cutting horse baby, or dressage prospect, you can always breed and join up with one of those organizations and compete. There's nothing stopping you.

The only reason I'm interested in possibly registering Firecracker anywhere is for resale. But hey, if she turns out to be brown, so be it. Her papers ought to be limited and offspring un-registerable. Doesn't take away from the nice horse, doesn't mean she can't compete (should any of the registries get their butts in gear and offer venues), but it should be limited.

(BTW, white dogs and cats generally do come with hearing issues; very good reason to stay away from them.)

[fantasykiger]

I wonder if deafness also applies to white horses, because the white TBs they are selling at auction from the ranch here in Redmond OR are selling for small fortunes, a filly recently sold for $80,000.00. When I say white, they are actully extreme sabino they have pink skin, dark eyes, sometimes very slight color to tips of ears. All I see when I see a horse like that is a sun sensitive horse, get out the sunscreen.

[desperatehorsewife]

Not that I know of. Gray wouldn't be considered white; but Cremello would. Horses don't come in albino, which I didn't know until recently. Always thought pink eyes meant albino, but evidently not in horses. I'd sure be interested to know if there were hearing problems linked to blue eyed whites, though, especially since that's what I'm going to be after next time.

[desperatehorsewife]

Wait...duh, yes there are problems! Lethal white!

www.mustangs4us.com/Horse%20Colors/lethal_white.htm

[lindaf]

If Kigers were never intended to be gray;........

In mulling over all the recent discussions it occurred to me that at the root of the debate is people's perception regarding what a Kiger is versus what a Kiger is intended to be.

If one accepts the concept of "what a Kiger is intended to be," then the horse's characteristics are totally subjective, meaning they are whatever someone decides them to be. In that case, the intentions of the founders of the original Kiger herds have set the guidelines, and supporters of this concept accept the subjective decisions of the founders. Kiger is a man made breed.

If one accepts the idea that Kigers are the naturally occurring horse herds chosen to inhabit the areas now defined as Kiger HMAs, then the horse is what he is...dun, grey, bay, white markings, whatever nature dictated that he is. People who support this concept logically conclude that whatever color he is, he's a Kiger because he is from the herds we now call Kiger.

So it seems to me that as long as we have these two mutually exclusive concepts of what Kiger is, one defined by man, one defined by nature, we will always have a difference of opinion. Maybe that is what it is, 2 opinions neither right or wrong, but different.

I believe that it is possible for people can come together to promote everyone's horses in a way that allows the differences to coexist. I believe that it was President Reagan who said,
"There is no limit to what a man can do or where he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit."

Linda F

[fantasykiger]

I have always wanted to see a horse with the champagne gene and green eyes. I have learned the thing with the champagne gene unlike the gray gene instead of going gray, then white the horse goes gold and then stays that way, it does not lighten with age.

[kigerfan]

I've read the 'fatal white' article before and found it quite interesting. I didn't save it because I figured I would never be in a position to need to deal with that particular instance. Linda you discribed the situation very well. That's why I believe that the captive bred Kigers will eventually be a different animal than the wild caught Kigers. It's quite a dilema. I do believe the registry that services the breeders/owners as well as the horses will be the more popular of the registries.

[Michelle Clarke]

...what a Kiger is versus what a Kiger is intended to be.
If one accepts the concept of "what a Kiger is intended to be," then the horse's characteristics are totally subjective, meaning they are whatever someone decides them to be.
In that case, the intentions of the founders of the original Kiger herds have set the guidelines, and supporters of this concept accept the subjective decisions of the founders. Kiger is a man made breed.

If one accepts the idea that Kigers are the naturally occurring horse herds chosen to inhabit the areas now defined as Kiger HMAs, then the horse is what he is...dun, grey, bay, white markings, whatever nature dictated that he is. People who support this concept logically conclude that whatever color he is, he's a Kiger because he is from the herds we now call Kiger.

Linda, High Five! That is THE BEST statement I have come across....

[lwood92]

fantasykiger said:

I have always wanted to see a horse with the champagne gene and green eyes. I have learned the thing with the champagne gene unlike the gray gene instead of going gray, then white the horse goes gold and then stays that way, it does not lighten with age.

I am still learning a lot about the Champagne myself. From what I understand there are different Champagnes based on the horses base coat. www.ichregistry.com/colors.htm So, an Amber Champagne is a Bay horse with the Champagne. I have a Gold Ivory Champagne QH mare. Which means she is a Palomino with the Champagne. Here are some pictures. She has amber brown eyes and the mottling around her eye is the indication she has the Champagne she also has it around her mouth. She is VERY pregnant!

[kigerfan]

verrrrrrrrrrrrrrry pregnant, does she have a whole herd in there?

[lwood92]

My mom is sure she is having twins!