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Post by Michelle Clarke on Jan 15, 2008 20:48:08 GMT -5
Very perceptive in regards to Rev's horsonality! He is a royal pain in the butt, with Madonnas' sense of humor and a heaping scoop of mischief on top of it! He can open any gate, latch or untie a rope. He is always doing things to make people laugh - hes' a great horse!
Desi, his full brother, shows signs of it, but has his mind on the girls too much nowadays. His half sister, Reina, I just started working with and she has some similar traits - not so much the sense of humor, but mischievous and looking to outwit and please you at the same time (if that makes sense!). I don't know if Rico follows in his brothers' foot steps, because I sold him and I don't mess with the foals I sell very much so they bond with their new owners better.
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Post by karismakigers on Jan 15, 2008 20:48:50 GMT -5
Hmmm.....I want purple Kigers. No, no wait.....I really want a purple bodied Kiger with yellow legs and a green neck and blue head. Yup! Perfect.
Now, I want all the registries out there to accept my purple, yellow, green, blue Kiger because it is a good horse with good bloodlines and came from the best breeder in the breed. Yup. That's what I want.
I don't care if Kigers are suppose to be a dun factored Spanish mustang type horse with ties to the old blood of horses that came with the conquistadors. I want my modern, purple-yellow-green-blue Kiger. And i want everyone out there to say how special my Kiger is. I'm not changing the breed, I'm improving the breed. Afterall, who wouldn't want a more
colorful" Kiger over those typical dun/grulla types. They are booooring....
Okay, so the above is a bit far fetched, but it isn't really that far off, really. It is human nature to want even if the breed doesn't support what your ideal of the breed is. Corgis are now shorter, smaller, more foxy than they were 35 years ago. Germans (show) are more angulated, longer, flatter footed than 25 years ago. All you need is one loud supporter, and a new fad is born. A look into the Morgan would prove that.....the olde style Morgan has all but gone the way of the dodo bird for the "modern" sleek, refined "saddlebred" type. There was only one well-known breeder that started the whole metamorphism of the Morgan. Get enough people jumping up and down shouting we want purple Kigers, and soon, we will have purple Kigers as the norm in the breed.
Jillian
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Post by nrly on Jan 15, 2008 21:47:28 GMT -5
well the gray had to come from somewhere do you all think it could be due to inbreeding or what so if it is in the wild then all colors should be acceptable, and how do we really know ALL the horse's brought over by the conquistadors were dun, I do not think we really do but people like that color so that is the color of acceptance, well not as far as i can see, I guess it is because i grew up with people being prejudice of me and who i am. that is how i feel so to me color is not an issue, regardless.
If a registry does not accept a color then I really do not need to be a part of that, papers do not make the horse. And through other means i can show my horse is a Kiger. I know it all boils down to standards, but that does not seem fair to me.
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Post by kigerfan on Jan 15, 2008 21:53:13 GMT -5
I think the point is that the original vision for the 'breed' but the ones that started it by separating the original group was to not have the grey coloring and I believe they took the grey out when they realized for sure that's what it was, so it doesn't come down really to being discriminating as much as it comes down to will they or will they not follow the original vision and standards for the 'breed'
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Post by kigerfan on Jan 15, 2008 21:57:21 GMT -5
Michelle, I love a horse with personality, one that has a lot of smarts and even one that is mischevious with a sense of humour. With a horse like that, if you are both on the same page, you have one heck of a partner. They can think things through and work their way around. I bet Rev really is a wonderful horse to partner up with. And the antics can definitely keep you on your toes.
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Post by Michelle Clarke on Jan 15, 2008 22:11:46 GMT -5
Nola, I agree and I know that it is not popular thinking, but oh well. I DO see the point of not having grey though. However, since it is not popular, I find it hard to belive that it will take over in the Kiger breed.
One big reason it took over in the Andalusian breed was because Mexico was a HUGE import force in the breed early on and they WANTED grey. While it used to be prevelant in the Lusitano, it is not so much anymore. The Viega line holds lots of black and bay; the Alter line is all bay (for conformity in the military) and the Andrade line is alot of grey.
My guess is that those who want to breed the greys (in the Kiger) are going for a different goal than those breeding for the "original" (which I still find hard to explain...). The old adage: "A good horse is never a bad color", certainly applies here.
Again, this subject could go 'round and 'round, but my feeling stands that if it came of the Kiger/Riddle HMA that it should be allowed to be registered - with stipulations or not; just as with "excessive white".
I also belive that if we want to keep with what came over on the boats, I would venture to say most were gaited and 13 hands. Does that mean Desi would not fit a breed standard because he is getting close to 16'2 now?
I don't mean it to sound wrong, because, as I said, I do belive there is a place for sticking to an original standard. However, just as everything else, the breed will evolve. Even the Friesians are into the F5's and they are being bred more and more sporty instead of so heavy. There is only one reason for this: because they are more usable and that makes them more sellable.
It is enevitable that the Kiger breed will "evolve" if you will, due to private breeders, just as every other breed has done. Right, wrong or indifferent, if one place won't except it, then someone else will start something new (seems to be the trend in the Kiger breed!). Every breed has growing pains, and I really belive that any registry that limits to an original breed standard will limit their membership and support in the future.
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Post by DianneC on Jan 15, 2008 22:43:27 GMT -5
What I find to be ironic is that the original guys were so very proud of their claybanks. And they turned out to be gray, what they did not want! Yes, many of the grays in private hands came from a mare, Mestena, who was adopted from the wild. She gave us wonderful horses like Sundance and Silverado. Gosh, too bad we don't have more like her today.
Back in about 2001- 2002 or so Bettye Roberts and I exchanged emails and pictures for well over a year trying to figure out what genes made the claybank. People were saying there were grays on the HMAs but no one would believe it. It wasn't until BarbK from the dungenes group visited a claybank and saw it was fleabitten and Flash turned gray that we realized that it was gray. No one figured that they were gray because the foals were born a light cream color with a dun or silver shading and dark points. They were gorgeous and many people did pay top dollar because they were rare. One went for $19,000 at the 1999 adoption. Some people suggest that high of a bid may have been a ruse for an old admirer of the BLM to contribute money, but the claybanks were absolutely the most sought after horses.
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Post by nrly on Jan 16, 2008 0:14:29 GMT -5
so they are as rare as the white buffalo, but like the white buffalo they are around. It is time for a changing of the guard so to speak.
nola
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Post by karismakigers on Jan 16, 2008 0:15:16 GMT -5
What I find to be ironic is that the original guys were so very proud of their claybanks. And they turned out to be gray, what they did not want! Yes, many of the grays in private hands came from a mare, Mestena, who was adopted from the wild. She gave us wonderful horses like Sundance and Silverado. Gosh, too bad we don't have more like her today. Back in about 2001- 2002 or so Bettye Roberts and I exchanged emails and pictures for well over a year trying to figure out what genes made the claybank. People were saying there were grays on the HMAs but no one would believe it. It wasn't until BarbK from the dungenes group visited a claybank and saw it was fleabitten and Flash turned gray that we realized that it was gray. No one figured that they were gray because the foals were born a light cream color with a dun or silver shading and dark points. They were gorgeous and many people did pay top dollar because they were rare. One went for $19,000 at the 1999 adoption. Some people suggest that high of a bid may have been a ruse for an old admirer of the BLM to contribute money, but the claybanks were absolutely the most sought after horses. When the two mares that were released in 1977 turned grey they were removed. Ron spent the last two decades trying to clean the grey off the HMA. The BLM cleans up the herd by offering horses for adoption. It is then up to the adopter to decide if it should be a riding horse or a foundation breeding horse. Dear old Flash, I remember when she was trying to register him as a roan. When he finally grey'd out she spent years telling everyone it was the Quicksilver shampoo that made him go grey. This is the first that I have heard that the $19,000 filly was a grey. Can anyone confirm that that filly indeed grey'd out. Jillian |
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Post by karismakigers on Jan 16, 2008 0:44:42 GMT -5
well the gray had to come from somewhere do you all think it could be due to inbreeding or what so if it is in the wild then all colors should be acceptable, and how do we really know ALL the horse's brought over by the conquistadors were dun, I do not think we really do but people like that color so that is the color of acceptance, well not as far as i can see, I guess it is because i grew up with people being prejudice of me and who i am. that is how i feel so to me color is not an issue, regardless. If a registry does not accept a color then I really do not need to be a part of that, papers do not make the horse. And through other means i can show my horse is a Kiger. I know it all boils down to standards, but that does not seem fair to me. Nola, They grey came in with those two mares. Ron had never seen dun + grey. To him, they looked like a buttermilk buckskin with nice dark points and dun factor. So, he tried to cultivate the color by releasing the two mares. When he discovered they were grey, they were yanked out. Anything that grey'd were yanked (i.e. adopted out). Adoption is how BLM gets rid of their culls and excess good horses. True, he made a mistake by putting in the grey carrying horses, he didn't know they were grey so it isn't his fault. He spent his entire days there trying to get all the greys out. Even after he retired in 1996, he kept pressuring the people that took his place to get the greys out. He worked so hard to create the Kigers what they are, it would be a shame now to spit in his face and say "nope, I do want what you created, I want it my way.". His blood, sweat and tears went into creating the horses. He and Bill Philips really went out on a limb to create the Kiger as they weren't allowed to be 'selecting' for anything...just manage and reduce the varmin/horses. As he says, BLM wasn't in the horse business. He and Bill Phillips did something unique with all the Oregon HMAs, he actually selected for a particular type on each one. One HMA from draft types, one for Appys, etc. That had never been done before and was against the rules back in Washington DC. BLM wasn't suppose to be setting up breeding populations and developing bloodlines/breed types. I'm sorry that you are taking this personal. It isn't a prejudice. I have no problems with greys. Once owned a dynamite Colonel Freckles granddaughter who was a rose grey. She was one hell of a cutting mare and when I sold her I heard that she won big for her owners in Idaho. But if I want a grey, I would not go to the Kiger breed for it. It isn't suppose to be part of the Kiger fabric any more than fine bone (but that occurs in the breed) or big ears (but that occurs in the breed too) or long thick heads (but that occurs in the breed also). Just because it occurs in a breed doesn't mean that it should be bred for or selected for or even kept in the breed. KHAR does allow people to register non-grey offspring from grey Kigers. There is an avenue for people. You keep saying that papers do not make the horse. This is very true. But papers are important or else no one would be fighting so hard to get them, to get that "recognition" on their horse. Everyone on this board has some great ideas and some great passion for the Kigers. They need that. But we also need to protect the horse so that it is a Kiger 50 years from now. And yes, I know that everything evolves.....but I am talking about the unnecessary changes that actually change a horse from what it was, creating a whole new breed while killing the original. The Morgan people are frantic trying to find enough of the old blood, to save the breed. They have splintered off and created the Foundation Morgan breed. The Morgan breed was nearly lost with the Saddlebred crosses that were made, more than 80% of the Morgans today have Saddlebred in them. We already have so few, can you imagine trying to recreate the Kiger breed? [ this is not a statement against crossing Kigers with other breeds.] In the Morgan, the Saddlebred was brought into the Morgan book. With true crossbreeding programs, the cross doesn't end up back into the purebred studbook. Jillian [/quote] |
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Post by Michelle Clarke on Jan 16, 2008 4:06:09 GMT -5
As was said, there is alot of passion in this breed. I firmly belive there SHOULD be a Kiger Foundation, based on keeping the old standard. Just as many other breeds use the foundation type to put into the blood lines, I belive this should be true with the Kiger also. I don't belive, however, it is a slap in the face to those who started the breed.
On the contrary, there are plenty of breeders who are allowing the breed to evolve into something more desirable to the equine public. If breeders cannot make money at breeding, the breed will fade away. There needs to be a desire for the Kiger, especially since the novelty has worn off. Like has been said so many times, the Kiger needs to be useable.
If the Kigers are marketed as a trail type horse, well, there is a small part of that crowd that will pay $10k for a trail trained Kiger. They will continue to buy horses that were bred for this or that and did not make it, so they get it cheap. You can't make a living on selling trained horses for $2,500.00, that is a losing proposition.
As it is, the Kiger will not beat any other breed at their game. They can't beat the QH at cow work, they can't compete high level Dressage with the Warmbloods, they are not going to out jump a thoroughbred, etc etc. It has all been said before.
So, yes, please preserve the "original" Kiger - I belive in it. But, it also has to be profitable for breeders and trainers of the Kiger, bottom line. I hate to see when foals are being sold for under $1,000.00. One just can't make it on that while keeping any sense of quality and wellness in the horses.
Someone will develop a "line" of Kiger that will do well in stock work against the QH; someone will develop a dressage line and so forth. It is inevitable as long as there is support for those folks to do it.
Like Dianne said, it would have been a shame to loose those grey lines. I got caught up in the grey thing with Madonna and quite breeding purebreds from her for the reasons you state. Well, her foals are hands down the best foals I have had to date and I am sad to have lost those wonderful traits she passed. Take it for what it is worth, but I am a supporter of a good Kiger, does not matter to me what color it is!
Jillian, I understand your passion, I hope you can understand mine!! ;D
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Post by lwood92 on Jan 16, 2008 10:22:46 GMT -5
I think that was well said Michelle.
I agree with you too, Jillian, that we should maintain a breed standard and that what was started by Harding should be preserved. However, I don't feel that an owner of a grey Kiger should be penalized because of something that no one understood would be a fault. And, that most people believed to be "rare" and marketed as "rare" until it was discovered otherwise. It is still a Kiger. I am assuming that Ron believed that the Claybanks he put in there were still very good representations of the breed, other than the color thing.
Maybe, when registering these horses the color should be on a point system, just like for conformation. Grey is not desirable just like a thick long neck, or legs not set right in the shoulder, etc. So, you get some points knocked off for that just like any other non-desirable trait. But, it is still a Kiger. And should still be able to represent the breed as such.
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Post by kigerfan on Jan 16, 2008 10:29:34 GMT -5
Exactly what I've been saying all along, point system. Full point system will solve everything  |
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Post by karismakigers on Jan 16, 2008 13:02:53 GMT -5
I don't belive, however, it is a slap in the face to those who started the breed. On the contrary, there are plenty of breeders who are allowing the breed to evolve into something more desirable to the equine public. Question. How does gray make a horse more desirable to the equine public? The equine public is looking for a horse that is or can be well trained. They are looking for an athlete, whether it is for the occasional trail ride or the World finals. They are looking for a horse that steals their heart and gives them 120% every time. How does allowing gray into the breed do all that? Another Question: Can you elaborate as to why you don't think that changing the overall appearance of the breed (i.e. allowing in colors that weren't allowed previous) is not slapping the originator of the breed? If breeders cannot make money at breeding, the breed will fade away. There needs to be a desire for the Kiger, especially since the novelty has worn off. Like has been said so many times, the Kiger needs to be useable. If the Kigers are marketed as a trail type horse, well, there is a small part of that crowd that will pay $10k for a trail trained Kiger. They will continue to buy horses that were bred for this or that and did not make it, so they get it cheap. You can't make a living on selling trained horses for $2,500.00, that is a losing proposition. The novelty of owning a rare, wild piece of americana history has worn off. Not Kigers themselves. Breeders of Kigers are of two types: those that peddle babies and youngsters without the investment of training trying to sell them on the mystique of a 'wild horse' and those that raise up youngsters, put them into training and sell a lifetime partner to someone. There are fewer and fewer of the first kind every year. As it is, the Kiger will not beat any other breed at their game. They can't beat the QH at cow work, they can't compete high level Dressage with the Warmbloods, they are not going to out jump a thoroughbred, etc etc. It has all been said before. So, yes, please preserve the "original" Kiger - I belive in it. But, it also has to be profitable for breeders and trainers of the Kiger, bottom line. I hate to see when foals are being sold for under $1,000.00. One just can't make it on that while keeping any sense of quality and wellness in the horses. True, Kigers have a long distance to go before they are in the Top 10 year-end awards for any of the major equine sports, but it isn't because the horses don't have what it takes to get there. Its because the owners don't have the $$$ or time to invest into making a top athlete. Those that can invest the $$$ and time, will get there. I'm proud of 'my' little Storm Warning. He took two thirds and a fifth in reining at the All American Buckskin Congress against QHs. True, he didn't beat them all, but he came in an impressive fourth overall. He was started here in Oregon, received a great foundation in training. And I was blessed with a buyer who saw what I saw in him and had the ability to take him the rest of the way up. Jillian |
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Post by desperatehorsewife on Jan 16, 2008 13:43:46 GMT -5
That's an excellent point! And for your Storm to do as well as he did is proof that they can indeed hold their own.
I also think the mustang makeover is going to open up a lot of avenues for these horses. It's bringing them out into the public eye in a way they've never been brought out before. The fact that Guy Woods bought his horse back to the tune of, what was it? $10,000? That says a lot and it made a lot of cutting horse folks sit up and take note.
There's nothing wrong with discriminating against a color when the breed was intended to be color based. The fact that people like grays (I'm one of them) has nothing to do with it. You've still got a nice horse, a good riding horse, a horse that can compete in several open events just like any other mustang. Is there something wrong with that?
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