Grey agian, sorry!

[nrly]

I do not get this it all sounded like our Kigers are low lifes in the horse world and with attitudes like that I am afraid that it will stay that way. this is how I took answers to michelle's posts.

[DianneC]

karismakigers said:

Question. How does gray make a horse more desirable to the equine public? The equine public is looking for a horse that is or can be well trained. They are looking for an athlete, whether it is for the occasional trail ride or the World finals. They are looking for a horse that steals their heart and gives them 120% every time. How does allowing gray into the breed do all that?
Jillian

It doesn't prevent it either. If your thinking was followed there would be no Kiger Sundance or any of his kids.

karismakigers said:

Breeders of Kigers are of two types: those that peddle babies and youngsters without the investment of training trying to sell them on the mystique of a 'wild horse' and those that raise up youngsters, put them into training and sell a lifetime partner to someone. There are fewer and fewer of the first kind every year.
Jillian

Careful there Jillian. Even you couldn't take your Storm all the way. There is a place for good breeders. Whether people have the talent, money or facility for completing the training is another matter. What does matter is that they do a good job with their part and make sure the horse goes to a good home just as you did. I think you were referring to dumping Kigers on just anyone who would pay the money. I'm against that too.

[karismakigers]

diannec said:

Careful there Jillian. Even you couldn't take your Storm all the way. There is a place for good breeders.

Dianne, actually, I don't have to be careful. I do hope you re-read my post.

Storm was raised up and put into training BEFORE I sold him.

Jillian

[nrly]

no not personal, just letting people know that it is not right, the way color plays a big part on which horse is good, and which horse isn't. When you put a human side to something it does tend to get people's attention, and i did that because I do not feel throwing out a good horse cause it is gray is the right thing. and who is it say that Ron got all the gray out before that horse bred, and then it's off spring will throw a gray somewhere down the line. Why not just work with it, and move forward. also I remember seeing a gray horse in the trials for the U. S. A. Olympic equestrian team several years ago. If he wasn't good he would not be there color was not a factor.
nola

[desperatehorsewife]

I don't think you're really understanding this, Nola. No one is saying gray isn't good, but what we are saying is that it's not part of the dun factor, not what the kiger was originally selected to be (regardless of a mistaken identity), and these are, after all, animals and not humans.

Let's put the shoe on the other foot for a moment. Why is it that your Kiger mustang is better than my Warm Springs mustang? Just because it was born on the Kiger HMA? Riddle HMA? That's a rather snobbish attitude, don't you think? So what if your mustang is gray. No one is stopping any mustang from competing in the US Olympic trials based on color or where they were born. No one is stopping them from competing as a cutting horse, reining horse, or any other number of events. Is it not good enough for you that you'd be representing one of America's Living Legends with your gray mustang?

You're complaining about color discrimination, but at the same time you're discriminating based on where a mustang is born. Why is that?

[kigerfan]

If a Fresian came out as a grey horse, would it be allowed to register? If a Lippizan came out bay, would it be allowed to register? The point is not whether the horse is good or bad conformationally, the question is, does it meet the registry standards. The original standards for this breed do not allow for grey. The questions is still simple. Will the standards be changed in order to allow grey. I don't disagree with you nola but you are focusing on the wrong point. I haven't seen anyone say that a grey horse is an unsound, conformationally bad, unuseable horse, just that the color is not allowed in the standards. The disagreement stems from changing the original standards.

[Michelle Clarke]

Jillian, I never said that grey was a reason to make a horse better. I said some breeders are focused on putting out a trainable, usable horse - no matter what color.

I don't belive evolution of a breed - which cannot be stopped - is a direct hit to the originator. I am just saying it is a fact of life. Aside from breeders choosing lines they prefer (which will change breeder to breeder), we are talking about a wild horse that we have no control over who breeds who and who gets over the fence. Just look at the last adoption. I KNOW this is not what was intended at the start. There is nothing that can be done about these facts.

The worst thing to do is to make these horses fit into a standard that is not feesable to control. There needs to be a more "open", if you will, standard in which these horses can develop; because the Kiger as a breed is still developing.

And I am not breaking bad here, but it is obvious from the Breed Standard that whomever came up with it had no experience of what Spanish Horse traits are since the BS is not a Spanish BS.

One simple example is hooked ears. I hate to tell you that hooked ears are Arabian influence and something the Spanish Breeders fault (and the Portuguese). Yes, there were five Arab stallions brought into the Spanish lines in Spain way back when the gene pool was small, but any Arab traits are strictly bred out - or should be!

This is the main reason why before I stayed out of any and all politics with the Kiger. I bought the Kiger based on Spanish decent. I breed the Kiger based on Spanish decent. I was shocked and embarassed when I tried to get the Kigers included in other arenas as a Spanish Horse and was time and time agian shown that this was not possible, since the Breed Standard of the Kiger was not even Spanish. This was a huge frustration for me and I am learning this is a huge frustration for many within the Kiger breed.

So, with that said, it gets back to a registry giving the members, breeders, fans and admirers what they desire and what is needed. It can't be just about the horses, it has to be about the people too. If there are not people to care enough about the breed, then it will fail in the long run.

I do understand and see your points - they are valid. I only wish you could try to see mine. If you could take one thing away from this post, I hope it is that the Kiger Breed Standard is not Spanish, and that is the biggest change that is needed right off the bat.

[kigerfan]

My beautiful girl was sired by Kiger Sundance so I'm biased in this and trying to stay neutral. I just think the standards, what ever they will be, need to be sorted out and allow us to continue on with our passion

[karismakigers]

Michelle

I really do see your points. I'm just trying to determine if this is an evolution that needs to be allowed or even promoted by the breed registries.

I agree that hooked ears are more of an Arabian or even Barb influence.

Jillian

[nrly]

ok no I do, but,I say gray cause I never hear about bay's(allot) I know even bay's are not desirable, why is it just duns, I am all for the Kiger's I have two Dun's Riddle my Stallion, and Stormy my mare, but I want to know what makes these grays, white issues in peoples eyes a bad thing. Does the white take away from their strength, from what they are a Kiger. Clay banks are awesome and i would love to have one but from what I understand they can be a rarity and if you have one it can gray out on you and if they do does that make them less a Kiger, why is that a bad thing. A good horse is a good horse.
my Kigers were captive raised. I guess I am so much like my grandma, if it walks like a duck quacks like a duck then it is a duck. If it is a Kiger and it is gray then it is a kiger. So i won't bring up the gray thing again, since I know what I am asking but I can't seem to get it across in the right way, to be answered, or maybe I am searching for an answer that isn't there. I hope though I answered your question about different places these horse's come from. if it is a Kiger and it comes from somewhere else to me it is a kiger. How can i say not and yet feel the way i do about the white and gray issue wouldn't that make me a hypocrite.
nola

[sonrisa98]

I'm seeing the grey in Kigers as in the dog world. White Boxers and white schnauzers are not desireable as breeding stock. At least you could still show a grey Kiger and maybe register him as a partblood. But you cannot even bring a white boxer or white schnauzer in the show ring. Its something that has been set in the rules for a long time. Yet theres another point, as in the Quarter horses. There was a time that albinos and cremellos weren't accepted as registered horses. They were cast outs. That has changed now because they believe it helps produce the palomino and the other lighter colors ( can't remember the exact reason and I'll have to look it up again) But my point is maybe years down the road the standard could change, maybe not. The Kiger was based on its primitive color and the likeness of the first original ones that were brought in. Like it was stated above, controlling breeding in an uncontrollable situation the grey won't be bred out. That is up to us as owners and breeders to clean up the genes in a control enviroment and make the Kiger what we think they should be. You can't do that in the wild unless you know what mare had what foal every year and who bred her. Its impossible.

[nrly]

that is so sad, it sounds like custom breeding. But i do know what you are saying in the dog world, I have a Brussels Griffon he can not be shown because he has what they call a blond top. Oh well he is my baby and I love him. I tend to be drawn to the unique.
nola

[desperatehorsewife]

White boxers tend to have genetic defects such as deafness, so there's good reason to exclude them

[kigerfan]

I used to raise train breed show German Shepherd Dogs. Black ones and white ones were not only not registerable, they were complete outcasts, considered almost a deformity. By the time I got out of it, blacks and whites were acknowledged but not showable. I've been out of it for many years now so who knows, maybe they can show them now too. But if back when I was involved, I came up with a white or black pup (which I never did), the pup would have gone to a good home as an unregisterable German Shepherd Dog. The color didn't make him/her less of a German Shepherd Dog, it just made them unregisterable.

[sonrisa98]

I just also found out that Schnauzers use to be black and tan and were used to create the mini's from the standard. That color is not desireable now and will still pop up once in awhile after all these years. I found my info on the cremellos and perlinos I'll post later when I get home from work.