Grey agian, sorry!

[karismakigers]

Silver (Z) and Gray (G) are different genes altogether, and react on the equine coat completely differently than one another.

Jillian

[fantasykiger]

From what I have seen with the silver gene it focuses on the mane and tail not so much the body of the horse. The body of the horse will remain true to color the silver will show up on the other areas I mentioned.

[prizmbluekigers]

Hi Fantasy,

Enjoyng the mild winter we're having here? The discussion of grey is interesting to me in that I have a mare who can best be described as a dark dun right now as she has a distinct dorsal summer and winter. She was sired by Silverado . Without the dorsal, I would have called her a bay. I also have a dun colt , same dam, different sire (dun this time). So with Silverado and Mestena stacked in the bloodlines, we are waiting to see if the dark dun mare has a dun baby this year or what we will get from breeding her to my dun stallion. I was in touch recently with another Kiger owner who has a mare by Silverado also and her mare is a very pretty dappled grey color, altho she started life as a dun. The mare has some nice Kiger traits under the color. If that lady wants to join this discussion, she can, I just won't give her name out due to the sensitivity of this topic. Then there is Evan's horse Raffle. Silverado is the sire again and so far, Raffle seems to be holding his original color. I don't know if they call him a bay or dun and don't want to insult them by calling Raffle's the wrong color. I have never seen a picture of him that showed a dorsal - doesn't mean there is not one there.
So, grey is still an issue to be settled someday. Maybe as we settle the other registry questions we can address color versus characteristics as a topic. I know I will be careful to declare lineage if we get a claybank foal, not knowing what the final color will be. Something is going on genetically and I am not as well versed in genetics as some of you are, so if I say something silly, correct me. If grey is a color and we are not going to see it in some Kigers until they mature or age what considerations are we going to have in the registry for a color change? Will we register them as Claybank, conditional Claybank -may age out to grey, or maybe color TBD - wild card color? Kidding about the wild card color, but what will happen to those horses we have been calling Claybank? What colors hide grey - all Kiger colors? Only Claybank and if so why just Claybank? Is a Kiger that goes from Claybank to grey be affected by another gene in conjunction with grey? What about those who go from a dun or some other color to grey finally? My mare grew a soft fuzzy partial coat end of last summer that covered her neck, shoulders, under her chin up toward her neck and part of her belly. The growth was a dark grey, not black color and all she has left are some darkstriping on her neck, but at the time I wondered if she was going to start to change color. Please note that I bought the filly knowing what color she looked - bay with a dorsal, so I don't care about the grey issue personally, I just want to learn as much as I can about breeding Kigers and I may never breed this mare again no matter what color we get so I'm up for any good solution. Have we any history of a grulla Kiger turning grey? I would suspect that someone misnamed the horse's color for that to happen, but I wondered just the same. Thanks

[DianneC]

One of the original BLM guys involved with Kigers said that he thought the first grey was introduced as a grulla. I'm still not sure if the original "pumpkin" horses that they called claybanks were gray or not. He said they were called pumpkin because they turned orange-ish in the winter. Anyone have a picture of a horse in winter coat that matches that description? Sounds like it could be a super light red dun.
In order to get a grey foal you have to have a gray parent. MOST horses will show gray by the time they are three by the tip of their tail turning light, kind of yellowish. If you look at the mare's picture you'll see her tail is lighter on the end. She is gray. There are some that gray later, but if you have a claybank horse you should realize that it will quite likely turn gray. Most regular (non-dun) gray foals are born some other color, whatever the base color would be without gray. A regular gray foal will have gray eyelashes and soon develop gray around the eyes like spectacles. The confusion about claybanks came about because gray plus dun foals are born a light creamy color with dark points. They stay that color until they gray out.
One of the most magnificent Kigers I ever saw was a gray stallion that came out from his herd to challenge me on the Kiger HMA. He changed my mind about gray. It would be a shame to loose those genes, or the genes of bay horses because of color. In my opinion, if people can't accept solid color or gray Kigers then they should have a registry provision for breeding stock and let the foals that aren't gray or solid be registered.

[desperatehorsewife]

Dianne, the old gray is looking very much like a light dun with his winter coat. No doubt at all about his dun lineage from the way he looks right now.

[lindad]

Hi Prismblue,
Good to hear from you. Calling a bay "bay" even if it is dark dun is not an INSULT, it is a color description, IMO. Raffle is one of the special ones even if he was green. I can say that to you because you are not color predjudice. I defend bays and blacks like Nola does excessive white, or Tiffany does gray. But, I think the "bays and "blacks" are possibly the darkest phase of duns or possibly a dun with a sooty modifier in the black as Dianne suggests. Do we have anyone who has bred their "bays"? What did you get for color in the foals? Dianne's Chinny sure produces color. I think that my dun mare's dam was bay. Does anyone know or have photos of Riddle's Mountain Mandi, owned by Jacki Sigloh? Maybe she can shed some light on the subject, if the mare is or appears to be "bay". I see that the Mandi took high point kiger mare 2006. I sure would like to see her! There are plenty of photos to look at of my mare from her.
Linda D

[karismakigers]

admin said:

So, why do we let these[black] horses breed, when they are totally void of the dun factor which is why the grey is not desirable...

However, the greys are known to carry the dun....whether 50% or 100%. Bred to a non-dun breed, you have a better chance of getting dun.

There are bays that carry dun and bays that appear not to. Why do these horses get inclusion? When bred to even a Kiger stallion with only 50% dun factor, then you may not ever produce offspring with dun. I know there has to be dun factor Kiger stallions when bred to a bay mare that will produce bay foals with no stripes. Why are these foals registerable while dissallowing the grey, which DOES carry the dun?

If there are stipulations on the grey, then there needs to be stipulations on the black and bay. Just because it is seen more on the grey as far as the taking away of the dun, at least they have the genes to pass the dun.

The problem will be more and more prevelent when the Kigers are more crossbred to non-dun horses and the foals show less and less of the dun factor.

Well, here is something to ponder...

Most people who own bay and black mare/stallion think long and hard before breeding them. They know there is a pretty good chance that the foal will be non-dun. Most people will spend some time evaluating their solid horse, considering its conformation, temperament, etc. Essentially, they think twice about breeding it.

Grey-duns (so called "claybanks/greybanks") on the other hand are a different story. Rarely are they serious truly evaluated for breeding quality. They are "rare", "unique", "odds for getting one is one in ten or one in fifty", "special". I'm not saying they are never evaluated, but there is a definite 'rush' to spend big bucks for them (more than normal spent on a grulla or dun of the same quality) and then get rich quick by breeding them. They are a marketing gimmick. As I search the web, it makes me think....I have never seen aged photos of the big name "claybanks" in the breed. Only foal pictures or young pictures (2-3 years old). If there are the true rare claybanks out there that are not the grey + dun, why don't we see more photos of these great older claybanks? Is it because they are grey + dun and the mystique about them might tone down to normal levels?

Blacks are the base color for grullas. Bays are the base color for duns. Now, the "blacks" that I have had experience with in the Kiger breed are born with buff color in their ears. All color experts out there will tell you that this is not genetically a black. I don't know if Chinny had the buff in the ears, maybe Dianne can come on and elaborate. Our black, Navajo was born with buff color in the ears.

Is it the dun gene(s) interacting with black, only time will tell. Breeding blacks to duns doesn't help in determining whether the blac actually carries the dun gene(s). Black bred to Zebra Dun (Hetero Dun) gives Zebra Dun 35% and Bay 35% of the time. If bred to a Zebra Dun that was homozygous for dun, then Zebra Dun 70% and Grullo 23% occurs. If that Kiger "black" is bred to a chestnut or sorrel mare and produces a red dun baby, he is the carrier of the dun gene and is therefore a melanistic grullo.

Bays can be two types: line-backed and not line-backed. There are a few in the equine world that believe that line-back bays (that keep their dorsals for life) are actually dark duns. This may be, only time will prove this out.

So, why isn't chestnut/sorrel accepted since they are base colors of red dun. The other two base colors might actually carry a form of dun, while a chestnut/sorrel can't. There aren't any chestnut/sorrels born with "dorsals" and other dun factor traits unless they are actual red duns. No suspect individuals like line-back bays and buff earred blacks.

Grey isn't a base color, it is a modifier. It modifies all other colors. One grey gene will convert the base color into a progressively greying coat until it either stabilizes or turns them near-white.

Interestingly, in the Horse Color Explained book, it states:

"Greys were never popular among early Thoroughbred breeders and the colour almost died out until The Tetrarch came on the scene. Today, every grey Thoroughbred traces back to this horse. Similarly, until Skowronek left his mark on the Arabian, greys were nowhere near as common in that breed as they are now.

So, if the craze of the rare, unique "grey-bank" continues, it is not unlikely that grey will become a dominant color in the Kiger breed. Currently there are only 2-3 breeders that are pushing the greys as breeding stock in the Kiger world, interestingly, all grey-banks trace back to one stallion....hmmm, sounds a little like Tetrarch or Skowronek, now doesn't it?

Kiger people are going to have to decide if they want to stick with the original coloration of the Kiger (including the true non-grey claybank) or change the Kiger breed by allowing in grey, chestnut, sorrel and even seal brown with no dorsal stripes. Do they want to make a new breed or work within the confines of the original breed?

Decisions, decisions....

Jillian

[DianneC]

Yes, Chinny has buff ears, but I'm not sure that proves dun factor. I've seen other horses that were buckskin (not dunskin) with buff ears as well. But he has a dorsal as well, as do many of the black looking Kigers. Even when I thought he was "just black" I chose to breed him as he had what I thought the Kiger breed needed badly. And his dam's genes go way back to the horses in the early herd in 1982.

It seems like the bays that are dark have dorsals, but the ones that are red bays do not. That makes me lean toward sooty plus dun on the dark ones. However, Tia obviously is sooty and passed it to Chinny. There is a dark cast to her coat, especially her face. So if its just the sooty gene why isn't she dark dun? Dunno, I can't figure it out.

How do "all the graybanks trace back to one stallion" when they are on the HMAs?

What you are implying is true. The older claybanks are grayed out and that's why we don't see pictures - except of Flash. He's magnificent. If you think about the origins of the Kiger I think the reason the original BLM guys had a prejudice against gray was that they were dealing with a small herd of horses. Gray being dominate and taking out dun markings (eventually) would have been a good reason to not want them in the early herds on the HMAs. The story is different today. There is a broad base in public hands and gray will not "take over".

I notice that many gray Kigers are a little different type. More of the Andalusian body. Maybe its my imagination or the result of that gray stallion I saw in the wild and Kiger Flashpoint. Maybe there is a little different blood line back there somewhere. Anyway, its why I keep harping on saving the genes they carry.

What is a "true non-gray claybank", do you have a picture we can see? I don't know what one looks like, in fact, have never seen one that I know of. How do we know its not gray since a certain percentage never finish graying, like the 17 year old gray stallion we've been discussing? I'd love to see a pumpkin horse.

[karismakigers]

diannec said:

Yes, Chinny has buff ears, but I'm not sure that proves dun factor. I've seen other horses that were buckskin (not dunskin) with buff ears as well.

How do "all the graybanks trace back to one stallion" when they are on the HMAs?

What you are implying is true. The older claybanks are grayed out and that's why we don't see pictures - except of Flash. He's magnificent. If you think about the origins of the Kiger I think the reason the original BLM guys had a prejudice against gray was that they were dealing with a small herd of horses. Gray being dominate and taking out dun markings (eventually) would have been a good reason to not want them in the early herds on the HMAs. The story is different today. There is a broad base in public hands and gray will not "take over".

I notice that many gray Kigers are a little different type. More of the Andalusian body. Maybe its my imagination or the result of that gray stallion I saw in the wild and Kiger Flashpoint. Maybe there is a little different blood line back there somewhere. Anyway, its why I keep harping on saving the genes they carry.

What is a "true non-gray claybank", do you have a picture we can see? I don't know what one looks like, in fact, have never seen one that I know of. How do we know its not gray since a certain percentage never finish graying, like the 17 year old gray stallion we've been discussing? I'd love to see a pumpkin horse.

Dianne,

Sorry wrote that late at night and should have been more clear.

I didn't mean that black with buff was proof of dun factor, just that it was proof that we are not dealing with straight black.

And I should have said, claybanks in captive herds that are being bred all stem back to one stallion. Most people who adopt a grey from the BLM don't rush out to breed it to make more grey Kigers. Most are broke to ride, others were bred to other breeds. The people adopting greys seem to have a little more grounded view and adopt because they like the particular horse, not to get rich quick.

Many gray are of a particular type. Some say old Andalusian some say old Morgan.

A true non-grey claybank is that horse which does not have a grey parent but has the pale creamy body and darker points, like a buttermilk dunskin.

I'll dig through my files and post some identified claybanks.

Jillian

[Michelle Clarke]

prizmbluekigers said:

Have we any history of a grulla Kiger turning grey?

I have two grullos' that greyed, Rev and Rico.

The first pict is of Rico at a day old:


Here he is a year and a half:


This is Rev about a week old:


This is Rev this summer at five yrs. old:


I was told Rev was a "silver Grullo" and when I questioned in regards to grey, I was told - there is NO GREY in Kigers ('course this was 5 yrs ago). I had my suspicions when he was young becuase he has a water mark on his check and I have seen other grey horses with those marks.

I knew Rico would grey when he was born because of the same coloring as Rev was. While Rev did have silver tail hairs at the base of the tail, Rico does not. Ricos' body is showing no real greying right now - maybe some hairs over his eyes - but he is getting streaks of grey in his mane.

[kigerfan]

Rev looks like a real character, I bet he has a fun personality

[prizmbluekigers]

Thanks for the discussion and info folks. Nice pictures posted above regardless of the color or how you feel about grey (already said I am a sucker for a dark dapple grey). I will share the color facts and pictures when my mare foals so we can see what I get from a lineback bay. So, My mare's dam is a dun from the wild- no good data to draw on there. My mare came from GingerSnapp and Silverado whose sire and dam were Mestena and Steens Kiger. I think I have a 50/50 chance of a dun, and the other 50%, who knows. I shouldn't get black or grulla, but as my dun stallion came from the wild, I don't know what lingers in his background. One day after we DNA a few more generations it would be nice to see the relationships we don't know about now. I would love to find out more about my stallion. Color just isn't my main focus. I bred the stallion because he has a good mind, a gentle disposition, looks and he is willing (if you overlook the attitude I sometimes get when his ideas and mine differ). These could be his first and last foals and I don't plan to breed back this year.
I agree about Raffle and I have never seen them in person, but I watch for updates on what Evan is up to next. What an ambassador for the breed.

[fantasykiger]

Do we have anyone who has bred their "bays"?
Ok I have a bay BLM Mustang broodmare that I recently retired in the past 10 years she had 6 foals with me. Mind you she is not a Kiger but a bay I also realize dun/buckskin is the color of the day and most marketable. I did majority of the time coose dun colored studs for breeding this is what she produced, in case you are curious.

mare bay x Kiger gray = dun gray
" " x Kiger grulla = bay
" " x Arab bay = bay
" " x dun paint = dun pinto
" " x dun paint =solid dun
" " x dun paint = bay

So when bred to dun she did deliver dun majority of the time. I most certianly love my bay mare would not want to see the end of bay Kigers or blacks. I happen to believe there is a place for gray Kigers as well.

[nrly]

I really do not understand the color issue where if a horse is one color it might not be acceptable if the horse is a good horse good lines just every thing you would want who gives a flying poo about the color. not me.
nola

[kigerfan]

A flying poo, what a picture
I don't think people's opinion of grey is the issue, I think the issue is; do the registries follow the original guidelines set out by the blm (that don't allow for the color), or do they create their own qualifications.