Grey agian, sorry!

[Michelle Clarke]

In the view of moving forward, I still belive the grey needs to be handled differently. If some registries want to stick to the original Breed Standard, then I really belive that grey has been part of it whether it was intentional or not.

If Ron Harding himself, introduced the "claybank" into the herds as acceptable, then later they turned grey, then to me, it has been part of the past history of the Kiger and needs to be handled for those who have bought those claybanks and now have them in their herds.

The found horses are being handled, the white markings are and so should the grey. Bay horses are still acceptable, even if they don't have striping, am I correct? While I understand that grey is not desired, there still needs to be a solution for those with purebred grey Kigers, not just knock them out of a registry, especially when they are freezebranded from the two Kiger HMA's.

[desperatehorsewife]

I don't see a problem with that, but I do see it as being a problem in breeding stock. With Rick giving away horses that he can't sell due to their color, I think it's very important that people realize their gray horses shouldn't be used as breeding stock. Which goes back to having stock evaluated first, perhaps?

[Michelle Clarke]

I agree that if that is less than desirable, then it should be bred out. BUT, there are lots of grey horses that do not produce grey often or at all. How do you know if they are not bred? Madonna was prevelant in the grey, that is why I did breed her to Luso for crossbreds. I have a Paso mare that is grey and she has had one grey out of 9 foals...five of which were World or National Champions - would have been a shame not to breed her based on color.

Anyway, there should be some way to deal with it, grandfather the ones in that are already in place and maybe only give their grey foals non-breeding status and if they are bred, then their grey foals cannot be registered at all, only the colored ones (I think the KMA already does something like that, no?).

I don't belive I have the answer, but if they are freezebranded from the HMA's then they need to have Kiger status.

[karismakigers]

admin said:

I agree that if that is less than desirable, then it should be bred out. BUT, there are lots of grey horses that do not produce grey often or at all. How do you know if they are not bred?
Anyway, there should be some way to deal with it, grandfather the ones in that are already in place and maybe only give their grey foals non-breeding status and if they are bred, then their grey foals cannot be registered at all, only the colored ones (I think the KMA already does something like that, no?).

I don't belive I have the answer, but if they are freezebranded from the HMA's then they need to have Kiger status.

I don't think KMA allows in grey or their offspring....with the exception of Mestena & Sundance. All greys have been placed in the non-breeding category and offspring not accepted (regardless of color). At least that was how it was when I was in KMA.

KHAR allows non-grey offspring of grey horses to be registered via hardship. This allows anyone that has an outstanding grey (cornformational & characteristically) to produce excellent non-grey Kiger offspring without the threat of grey becoming predominate in the breed.

Jillian

[fantasykiger]

Personally I have never known Rick to give away for free a claybank or grey foal because if he had I would have been first in line those are usually his high dollar foals. My mare is a grand daughter of Mestena which is where she got her gray, of that I am sure. I simply do not see gray as a bad deal. There are far to many breeders focused on dun for the few that have gray horses to be a bad deal.
This is what I do not understand gray horses the majority of the time are still dun horses. Yet registries allow non-dun colors such as black and bay and do not feel threatened by them. As if the non-duns will out number the dun horses.

[desperatehorsewife]

I don't know if Rick has gray foals...I do know they were giving away a bunch of broodmares last year, had them listed a couple of times on Dreamhorse. I asked Marcia about that while at the adoption and she said no one wants to buy a bay Kiger.

So even if gray doesn't necessarily reproduce, I think the breed as a whole needs to recognize the over abundance of horses in general in this country right now and realize that if they're being given away, it's not doing anyone any good. It only creates a glut in the market, even if it's purely due to color, and that's only going to drive the price of every Kiger out there down. It doesn't mean they're any less able to do the job, but since people want color in their Kigers, that's got to come into play when creating a breed standard.

[pepper]

OK,gonna forgive you that last remark cause you're new to the kiger world.(who is Marcia? she needs a clue too)...but to say "no one wants to buy a bay kiger".........WRONG!!!I own a bay kiger & yes,I got him at 20 months old for a bargin price,($500)but still higher than alot of adopted dun kigers have gone for over the years,and if he had been born a dun like his momma or a grulla like his famous daddy,I wouldn't have been able to afford him at all.
I can't even count the number of times he has caused people to stop in their tracks to find out what breed he is,if he's a stallion(he's not),they want to breed their mares to him,horse-people & non-horse folks have told me time & again he's the most beautiful horse they've ever seen.He's 100% kiger,captive-bred & bay to boot but he's a great example of the quality that is possible to breed if color is not the only focus of the kiger registries.
There are many other bay kigers that are exceptional individuals as well as greys,blacks & even red duns.
From the number of "kigers" listed on various sites,looks like no one wants to buy any unremarkable or untrained kigers but the well trained ,reasonallby priced horses are being purchased.The name "kiger" has to mean more than color for this breed to survive.p

[desperatehorsewife]

Well...thank you for forgiving me, lol!

Marcia, as in Ricks wife. At least that's what I thought she said her name was. You may need to forgive me again. Their booth was next to mine and we only spoke briefly, but I'd asked why all the free horses on dreamhorse, and that's what she told me.

You're preaching to the choir when it comes to realizing you can't ride a color, though But doesn't this comment just prove what I said? Had your bay been a dun, he'd have sold for more...

I own a bay kiger & yes,I got him at 20 months old for a bargin price,($500)but still higher than alot of adopted dun kigers have gone for over the years,and if he had been born a dun like his momma or a grulla like his famous daddy,I wouldn't have been able to afford him at all.

[pepper]

And THAT is my point.....originally buyers(not always educated ,experienced horse breeders) bought and paid high prices for "kigers" based only on their color & many horses were bred that should not have been bred because of poor conformation & attitudes.Rick has admitted to breeding horses that in his opinion were not trainable and proved to produce mediocre offspring...though they might have been the right color...just not great horses.So ,when he started giving away horses this year(not just bays,lots of duns & grullas too),I wasn't surprized,but saddened that so many horses had been brought on to this planet that no one wanted.
Truthfully,I'm opposed to breeding mustangs,especially in this horse market & ecomony but if they are bred,it better be the best to the best.In the wild the breeding might appear to be random chance but only the strongest foals will survive,the smartest & fittest stallions reproduce & those are natures champions.
I don't know if Rick reads this board...so if Marcia is his wife..ooops..well,I've always been awful with people's names,but seldom forget a horse's and I'm not into the kiger politics & who knows who...I'm just a fan & owner of a kiger & just trying to do right by the horses.p

[desperatehorsewife]

Truthfully,I'm opposed to breeding mustangs,especially in this horse market & ecomony but if they are bred,it better be the best to the best.In the wild the breeding might appear to be random chance but only the strongest foals will survive,the smartest & fittest stallions reproduce & those are natures champions.

Agreed!

[kigerfan]

I just have to get a good giggle at the sticking out of the tongue
It's funny, we really do seem to agree on almost everything, there are very few sticking points, none of them seem to be conformation or mind. Color seems to be the biggest sticking point. The original description of the breed doesn't appear to allow for grey and many don't have a problem with grey or favor grey. Some saythe grey gene is very agressive and others say not. I've done research for hours and still come to the same conclusion, nobody anywhere in the horse world seems to agree as to the agressiveness of the grey gene. I don't see where the grey gene can 'take over' if there are lines that never breed into them. I do think that if the greys are registered or the offspring of the greys are registered, that it should be noted that the horse carries the grey gene. Other than that, don't understand any severity of disagreement here.

[Michelle Clarke]

I agree that grey should be noted (in reverse, most grey horses do not list their base color in other registries...), but so we can track the quality (or not) coming from the grey parent even if the foal is not grey. Plus I think alot of horses will be mis-registered because some of the greys do not do so until much later in life and owners may not be educated or be able to see early signs of greying. There will always be that issue.

So, "black" is a registerable color. Besides the fact we belive the black may carry a sooty gene that hides the stripes (as in the case of Dianne's stud), it was previously belived to just be black - no stripes. So, why do we let these horses breed, when they are totally void of the dun factor which is why the grey is not desirable...

However, the greys are known to carry the dun....whether 50% or 100%. Bred to a non-dun breed, you have a better chance of getting dun.

A black Kiger bred to another non-dun breed, may not produce the dun....or may throw the sooty which will cover up the dun anyway.

There are bays that carry dun and bays that appear not to. Why do these horses get inclusion? When bred to even a Kiger stallion with only 50% dun factor, then you may not ever produce offspring with dun. I know there has to be dun factor Kiger stallions when bred to a bay mare that will produce bay foals with no stripes. Why are these foals registerable while dissallowing the grey, which DOES carry the dun?

If there are stipulations on the grey, then there needs to be stipulations on the black and bay. Just because it is seen more on the grey as far as the taking away of the dun, at least they have the genes to pass the dun.

The problem will be more and more prevelent when the Kigers are more crossbred to non-dun horses and the foals show less and less of the dun factor.

[desperatehorsewife]

So where does the silver gene come from? And, should silver duns be allowed breeding status?

[kigerfan]

will the young-un in the front grey out? I love the color right as it is

[desperatehorsewife]

I asked Wendy about that while at the adoption because DD was looking at a silver dun from BB. They had her listed as gray, because they said she'd gray out in time. Which is why I'm wondering about the silver dilute gene.

Here's the mare in question. She does look like she may be getting lighter, don't you think?