breed

[nrly]

I am not sure what you all think, know, or what ever it is you are looking for, but to me this breed is everything I have been looking for in a horse so far. they give you all, and that is after you get their trust.This is the breed we are going to promote.... Stormy is my heart and my treasure...
nola
Rock'n M Kiger Ranch
Mesa, AZ & Snowflake, AZ

[angelskiger]

How long have you had stormy?

[Michelle Clarke]

I thought it was interesting (well maybe that is not the word) that when I picked up a brochure from one of the registries at the Kiger Adoption of what the breed standard is.

Two things that stood out were that the face could be concave, straight or convex....seems to cover all bases! The other was that the hocks should turn in slightly. That seems like something that should be being worked on breeding out.....!

I am curious to know how the Standard was developed. Did whomever decided this just look at the Kigers that were rounded up and say "yes, this is what we want"?

I know we don't really have control of what happens with the BLM in returning horses or with the wild herds as who breeds to who, BUT we do have control of our Kigers and I think a breed standard that betters the breed should be decided upon.

After all, the future of the breed is in our hands in the end.

[fantasykiger]

I think most people agree as far as dispostion goes Kigers are the best. I have hard time sometimes expalining to people that it is not an individual characteristic, all Kigers are characters in my experience with them, all are a (or at least most) joy to be around. But if you do not like a complex personality or horse, it is not a breed for you.
I think most disagreements arise from color or conformation of Kiger. What should a kiger look like? That was very evident at the adoption when the wild ones did not fit what most folks had in mind they should. Some clearly had bad conformation, others just did not fit the Kiger mold some folks have in mind.

[Michelle Clarke]

Tiffany, you bring up two good points. The temperment in general on Kigers is just one of a kind. I think everyone says that about their breed, but having been around so many different breeds in a training situation, I can say that the pure Kigers are incredible as far as trainability, try and figuring things out. Not to mention how bonding they are to their person!

Yes, there seemed to be a lot of dissapointment at the adoption (though with the prices you would have never known it!). My biggest complaint with the Kigers is when I was introduced to them over 12 years ago, they were toted as "Spanish". I have never seen a Kiger Breed Standard that was Spanish. Plus, what alot of folks like in Kigers is NOT Spanish! It seems as though if some people knew what Spanish triats were, they would not like it anyway - which is evident in the type of Kiger that people do pick.

There were lots of Quarter Horse looking heads and a lot of draft influence heads, especially in the Riddle horses. I was also surprised at the amount of dished faces on some of the weanlings! I really did not see many Spanish-type heads at all.

So, anyway, it was funny that you said they were not what some thought the should look like....we should find some that fits the Breed Standard to a T and see what folks think!

[DianneC]

There are three "types" that I've observed in Kigers.
One is very Andalusian looking, like Chinook, LadyRose and Teanna. They are wide through the chest, wIth a great hip and wide across the loins. Profile is straight to slightly convex with a slight taper to the muzzle.
One is very Sorraia looking, like Smoke. He has a narrow head and shoulders, very deep through the chest and light in the hip. He can move in ways I've never seen a horse move before, very agile. Profile is more convex with little taper. His dam looked very Luisitano to me.
The last one is like Cedar, fine head and more refined bone. Profile is straight with a great deal of taper to a small muzzle. I think she matches the breed standard pretty well.
Our thought has been to cross the Andalusian type with the type like Cedar to get a bigger size and more substance.
The high prices were because there were only a few horses that people were determined to get, so that doesn't say much for the overall quality of this year's gather. The dished faces of the foals will straighten out I think. I also think the horses were in poor shape this year. It will be good to see some that were adopted next spring!
How would you define a Spanish looking horse?

[fantasykiger]

Fantasy had a very dished face as a foal

But as you can see from today it is straight and big, not to big for her body. But leans more towards an Andalusian rather then drafty.JMO

You will have to excuse her the moody mare moment in that pic'...LOL:D But I was trying to find a side profile, that one fit the bill.

Anyway..babies can be hard to judge at times and are like 50/50 bets to me. There could be some real nices horses amongst them foals some real diamonds in the ruff.

[angelskiger]

How long did it take you guys to notice the bond between you and your kiger and how much time did you spend with it on a weekly basis?

[lindaf]

[How would you define a Spanish looking horse?]

Perhaps the most indepth study of what makes a Spanish mustang/horse is Hardy Oelke's book Born Survivors on the Eve of Extinction, Can Iberia's Wild Horse Survive Among America's Mustangs? It's a very informative book. In it, starting on page 43, Oelke describes the disparity among the breed standards according to the various American mustang registries. He also refers the reader to one of the 4 ancestral forms of horses (described earlier in the book) that is the basis of the Spanish type.

It will be hard to market Kigers to the public until the different registries get together and agree on a common standard.

[nrly]

I have has my Stormy close to 2 years now, we bonded from the day we got her home, by the second day we had her letting us touch her and love on her, but the 4th day James(trainer) had her out and moved to another stall no problem at all, she is so quiet, and loving, and she has finally whinnied at me, I stopped dead in my tracks cause she hadn't done this and we had had her a year when she did. This breed is one that is hard to explain ( just as Tiffany said) you have to see them to believe that we are not lying about how awesome this breed is. I see allot of the Paso Fino in them, and visa versa, also allot of Addilussions, and the jannette which are extinct, my spelling isn't the best but I hope you get my drift.
nola

[Michelle Clarke]

When we went to the Andalusian/Lusitano Nationals this year, there was a Portugese judge; whom was also a vet, breed horses and was there to revise some stallions for the Portuguese Stud Book. The revision is a public affair and over seas it is usally done at a big show for all to see. I think it would be interesting to share was his opinions are and what they look for.

First and foremost, the want to see the horse ridden. They watch all gaits and have each gait collected and extended each direction...halts and also backups. The Judge looked at them from each angle.

I guess I should explain first that scores in each "area", are from 1-10. If a horse scores two 5's, he is not revised. If he scores one 4, he is not revised.

Next they pull the saddle and do conformation. They used the term "medio lindo" (hope I spelled it right), which means "in the middle". They want the conformation aspects to be in between what you would see in an Arab and what you would see in a Draft.

First the head should be of medium length, not short between the jaw and mouth like a QH. The line from the jaw and mouth should be straight and not come upward or get smaller at the muzzle. The profile should be straight or convex, which should start between the poll, down between the eyes and flow to the muzzle. Only being convex below the eye (toward the muzzle) is draft influence. The ears should be medium height, not long and muleish. They should also not overly hook like an Arab - more rafter shaped. The eyes should be elliptical - not round (draft).

The neck should be on the shoulder, set upright with a nice curve. Top of the neckline to be longer than the bottom. Set high into the poll, clean throatlatch. The line from the with along the neck should be smooth - not with the withers sticking up alone. If a horse has a straight shoulder, the neck will appear longer. If the same horse had a nice angled shoulder, the neck would appear shorter, even too short if you don't know what you are looking at.

The shoulder angle should be long and sloped - not straight. The bone that comes from the point of the shoulder to the leg (I call it the elbow for quick reference), should also be long and sloping. The angles should be open and when the horse moves, the angles unfold into the movement. Meaning the leg both lifts and comes forward (like if you watched someone ride a bicycle and the way their legs moved). If you found the center of the shoulder bone, the leg should come out from this in a straight line all the way down with each joint to the pastern. The base of support from the hoof should also be on this line, with an angle that matches the shoulder.

The front legs should be clean with a rectangular knee joint and not round pasterns (Arab/cob). There should be a good "point" in the back of the knee where the tendons attach for strength. From below the knee to above the pastern should be the same width if viewed from the side. Meaning, the connection of the tendons and ligament into the knee should not taper under the knee and appear "smaller" than they do at the pastern.

The chest should be medium width, well muscled and without the sternum sticking out further than the rest of the chest. From the front, the legs should be straight with all joints straight and not turned out or in. The cannons should come from the center of the knee and not from one side.

The neck should flow into the wither and the wither should flow into the back behind the shoulder...one smooth line. The back should be straight from the croup into the wither. Medium width (and length) and well muscled (not like a Thoroughbred or overly like a QH) in order to carry the rider comfortably. The horse should be uphill, meaning the top of his wither is higher than the top of the croup (illium).

The mid-body should be elliptical with a deep hearth girth and the flank not sucked up, but defined. When viewed from the side, round rib appearance is Arab, square is draft. From front to back, the ribcage should taper meaning, be thinner where the rider puts his leg and come out some then taper in toward the back. This gives the riders leg a nice place for security and aiding, whereas a round ribcage (Arab) spreads your legs too far apart and causes a tight bum that cannot relax and move with the horse. It also has your legs up higher in more of a chair position. A slab sided horse will not give the rider stability by making the base wide area too high at the waist, and not below the waist were it should be.

The hip area should be on the round side after training, with the tail low set where it actually fits in between the butt cheeks at the top and hangs down nicely from there. When veiwed from the rear, the width should be the same from the hip bones (on each side of the horse) to the rear. Meaning you could fit a box with equal sides over the hips and the further point behind the horse would be the same width - not get smaller toward the tail and appear triangular (arab) or get wider (like a QH/draft).

The angles in the rear should match the angles in the shoulder like a trapaziod...if you flipped the shoulder angle over, it would fit right over the hind angles perfectly. The hip should not be too straight, nor too long and the stifle should be long with the ability to unfold like the front end.

Agian, the front legs should match the back in the way the tendons/ligaments attach. The stifle should have sufficient muscling. When viewed from the side, the hock should not come out further than the end of the hip and the cannons should be in a straight line at this point - not bent under (sickle hocked). It is best to have the hocks set low - lower than the knee is ideal.

The feet should be well formed, not upright and muleish. The frog should take up 3/4ths of the hoof in length.

The horse should have an overall Iberian look - nice curves; front - middle and back should match and flow together; and the horse should fit in a square. If you went from the front of the chest to the back of the hip and from the bottom of the hooves to the top of the wither, the horse would fit into a square for the bets balance and flexability. A Sport type horse fits into a rectangle, being longer than taller. (I personally have found most Kigers fit into a rectangle the other way - being taller than longer).

The horse should also look masculine if it is a stallion and feminine if it is a mare.
_____________

Hope this gives you a good idea!

He said that no horse is perfect but that is why we breed - to improve. One of the horses he did got a 5 on his legs, but scored very well overall, so he said he needed to be bred to mares with very very good legs. Of course there is more to it than that, but you get the idea.

[fantasykiger]

There are two ways the Kiger Mustangs registries can go about registering horses in my mind. They can go the route much like the AQHA and register any horse that comes from a the Kiger or Riddle HMA regardless of conformation. They are all Kigers after all, just as any QH that has a QH parent on both sides is a QH regardless if it has halter, racebred, or foundation conformation. Qhs come in all shapes and sizes they generaly look somewhat the same but the breed is loaded with misfits and the #1 registry year after year of new applications for papers.

or they can go the route of inspection after the decision is made to what the standards are for a Kiger and to what their conformation should be. Much like Fjords or a number of other breeds where everyone must look simular. Therefore holding the breed to a true single common look, feel and presentation.

I have a feeling the registry that excepts the fact that Kiger Mustangs are Mustangs from Kiger and Riddle HMAs and yes they are special there is no doubt. They do come in a few differant shapes and sizes. Will be the registy that just may hold tried and true. While in captivity we wish to improve apon the breed and I believe we can. No one agees or will ever about which direction to go. It is all about personal preference when we breeders breed, what I like may not be what someone else likes. If I want to take my Kiger in a western disipline direction I may breed for seperate conformation qualities rather then the breeder looking for a dressage or english hunter jumper prospect. There is general good conformation, then there is conformation for differant disiplines as well.

anyway..... my mare would fail on the should look feminine if a mare point...LOL ;D I was always told she looked like a stud, she has a huge jowl.

[Michelle Clarke]

Tiffany, you bring up some good points again!

I am of the mind set that Kigers that come from the HMA herds or ones bred from those horses should be registered, no matter what "type". My hope is that now since the novelty has worn off of it just being a Kiger, that breeders will start to breed for something specific - whether it be the stock-horse type; a dressage or sport horse type; a foundation type or even for the Spanish/Iberian type.

On the other hand, I do like a registry that sticks to one type...at least with a basic standard outlined and enforced.

Personally, I like an Iberian-looking horse. But above that, the Kigers for the most part, have such a great temperment, are highly trainable, bond to people and are so balanced and agile that they are far and above most other breeds. That is what I hold closer to me more than fitting into a type. I am strictly culling out any mares that have any pregnant dogy attitudes or are not "motherly". I love the time of year when the fillies are coming yearlings and the mommas are having new foals, this is when I can really see who will be good future mommas' and who will not.

Our yearling Tasa, is so motherly and kind that I can't wait to see how she does with her own foals. Little Bella Rosa did not get to grow up with the other mommas and foals because of the mare, so I was nervous when I first turned her into the herd. I had to wean her at exactly 90 days old, let her be with Carmie for a few months, then turned them out. Tasa immediately took over and protected her and would not let any of the other yearlings even look at her. She took care of her until that filly got confidence and was able to stay out of trouble and learn the ropes of herd life. That stuff means alot to me when I am picking out broodmares.

[fantasykiger]

I fully understand where you are coming from when you want there to be a set basic standard that all Kiger breeders should atempt to hold true to. There is a set standard for QHs, although they may vary due to disiplines. I do not want my Kigers to end up looking like dun QHs or Arabs nor should they one day appear to look like dun friesans all that hair and big HUGE bone. Kigers should be Kigers and as a fairly new breed that the fad appeal has worn off, with new owners and new breeders coming into the scene. Something needs to be done rather then every breeder coming up with a new registery to suit them. who is the Kiger expert here? who understands conformation and functionality? How does one judge disposition of a Kiger? They are horses of quirky disposition, I find absolutely loveable. I have found not everyone in the horse world thinks so at first, but Kigers do have a way of growing on them

I really wish I had more time at the adoption to check out all the new registries represented there. Just to quiz them on what their goals are and expectations. More so to see if they are really dedicated to this breed and in it for the long haul.

[MustangsInNC]

So, I'm pretty new to Kigers, but I was led to believe that ideally a Kiger should have very little to no white. What's your feelings on the matter?