breed

[nrly]

yes it does, but I do not think we will ever get rid of the gene to throw white if it is caused by inbreeding out in the wild, if this is correct then white should not be an issue. Stormy's mane is black, white, and dun color through out it. Her tail is the same way.
nola

[kigerfan]

Why don't you post a close up picture of what you're talking about and see what the response is

[lindad]

It sounds as though Stormy has inherited a nice dun trait. I do not think people are necessarily trying to get rid of white! They are just discouraging EXCESSIVE white as it is not a dun factor trait, so the less white the better as a breed standard. Believe me, if I was choosing between two Kigers and one had great conformation and a bit too much white vs a Kiger with no white and good comformation, I would take the one with white! Conformation, and temperment first, color is much less important.
Linda D

[karismakigers]

Linda has it right.

White is considered when looking at breeding stock, but conformation, temperament and other traits would come first.

Nola, Bi-coloring of the mane is a good trait.

Fresians are much more inbred than Kigers, yet they don't have nearly the issue with white as Kigers do. Their breeders took the extra time and viligance in the early years to minimize the impact of white on the breed.
In order to be registered in the original registry, Fresians cannot have any white on them.

The problem with white markings is that they are additive and they can skip generations.

True, we are dealing with a breed that exists in the wild and in the captive breeding populations. The Management plan for the wild breeding population requires a selection of breeding stock that has as little white as possible. Shouldn't WE as captive breeders continue this restriction of as little white as possible in our BREEDING animals?

Jillian

[Michelle Clarke]

"Fresians are much more inbred than Kigers"

Jillian, I have to disagree with you. There are over 40,000 Friesians worldwide and the breed dates back to the 13th century.

Small white stars on geldings and studbook mares are allowed.

They do have a vigorous inspection process and that lends more to what they are now as opposed to picking for color, though I understand what you are saying.

I would love to see an inspection process put into the Kigers but exactly WHO is going to be qualified? What credentials are we going to look at? It needs to be outside inspectors. JP has agreed to do this, however, first we have to have a Spanish/Iberian Standard and be willing to actually pay him ;D!

[lindaf]

The Fjord people have built their inspection process by inviting European experts to come to the US and put on clinics to train Americans how to do a correct evaluation. Some people go to Europe to become certified, but as you imply, Michelle, all this requires money. It would be great if JP would conduct a clinic.
Linda

[nrly]

wow so much to think about, thank you. close up picture of stormy I will do but I will have to wait till I can clean her up a bit, we are having storms pass through and it is hit and miss and were getting hit a bit, her white in her main is through out but underneath is where it is the most, but I will get a picture of her mane and tail. I guess I am one of those people who just does not see where the white is a big deal. But I do understand about keeping it to a small amout to keep it true to the breed.
nola

[fantasykiger]

I understand you completely nola where you see white markings as a none issue, I have no issue with grey Kigers. All the registries assure me that my gray Kiger can be registered because she is a half breed. But what about my desire to own a gray full Kiger? well, it is put on hold until the registries come together and the standards for conformation and color are set in stone. If grays are excluded then well ...I will cross that bridge when I get there.

[kigerfan]

I've seen some absolutely gorgeous pictures of greys, one in particular that I would have guessed to be an Andalusian. I don't know why they would exclude greys, they obviously occur naturally and with good conformation. Why wouldn't that just be one of the accepted colors?

[karismakigers]

admin said:

"Fresians are much more inbred than Kigers"

Jillian, I have to disagree with you. There are over 40,000 Friesians worldwide and the breed dates back to the 13th century.

Small white stars on geldings and studbook mares are allowed.

They do have a vigorous inspection process and that lends more to what they are now as opposed to picking for color, though I understand what you are saying.

While Friesians have a long history, they nearly were extinct in the mid-1950s. It was quite the bottleneck incident in the Friesians. Because of this they allowed unknown descent horses that looked like Friesians (hhmmm sounds like 'found' horses) and allowed for white stars. The studbook finally closed to partly unknown descent horses in 1978. Otherwise, the Friesian would be here today.

However, no white is allowed on the legs and body of Friesians that are registered as breeding stock in the original Dutch registery. I don't know about the requirements of the German registry. Then, of course the Americans had to have their registry, however, I believe they patterened it after the Dutch registry.

The american registry for Friesians "Fhana" is the only registry I know of that has an inbreeding coefficient calculator on their website for their members.

Jillian

[karismakigers]

kigerfan said:

I've seen some absolutely gorgeous pictures of greys, one in particular that I would have guessed to be an Andalusian. I don't know why they would exclude greys, they obviously occur naturally and with good conformation. Why wouldn't that just be one of the accepted colors?

Just as there are no palomino, leopard spot, snow blanket, varnish roan, pinto, paint, etc.

Grey wasn't a color that was originally selected for. Grey got into the Kiger HMAs through various means.

First, 2 of the original Beatty Butte horses that were labeled as "claybank" were in fact greying out duns. Ron Harding didn't know this at the time. Not many had every seen what grey on dun looked like back in the 70s. The two horses he put out were in his mind a pale buttermilk dun with an orangey glow. One was a mare, the other a stallion. Once the horses grey'd out, Ron removed them, but unfortunately the genes had already spread into the breeding population. He tried to clean up the herds from then on, but wasn't able to do it before he retired.

Second, horses were still coming freely into Riddle HMA from Sheepshead until mid 1990s. I'll have to check for exact date when the fences were finished. There were greys in Sheepshead.

Third, there is an ugly rumor of an grey Arabian being turned loose on Kiger. Not sure how much I believe of the story, but it is possible. There isn't anything that stops a person from driving up there and releasing a horse out on the HMA. Especially done after a round up in the fall, BLM personnel aren't going to be checking the range until spring. And they aren't going to spend the money rounding up one horse on an off-season. They will simply wait until the next roundup to remove him unless they can catch him in the water trap. There was a sudden appearance of concave heads and extreme dainty muzzles and overall smaller heads in the years following this mysterious Arabian's appearance. Who knows... I don't necessarily believe the story.

Grey is invasive as a gene. Grey is dominate, so it only takes one copy to show the color. All the greys in TB, are traced to ONE stallion. It is rare for Lipizaner to be born without the grey gene. They do have an occasional solid animal, but solid Lipizaners use to be more common place. Andalusians and Lusitano now have a high percentage of grey in the breed. You have to look long and hard to find solid Andalusians and Lusitanos, but they are still there.

Health wise: greys have high incidences of skin cancer and they sunburn more easily as they become more grey-white. While neither of these are life threatening, they are unnecessary pain. Some of the skin cancer can become life threatening when the melanoma invades the tissue around the anal spincter and colon. Removing large portions or putting the horse down are the only two options.

Jillian

[Michelle Clarke]

Jillian, thanks for further explaining the Friesians...

Hey, can you (or anyone) shed any light on the pinto colored horses that some of the original Kiger breeders used? I of course was told one version that is obviously not true. Sycha is out of one of these mares and SURPRISE! I can't even get her papers, so I can only guess on which mare it was.

Just curious, as JP thinks she is one of the better mares, especially her movement.

Linda, JP would most definately do a clinic, we would just have to have enough people and enough Spanish type horses. We could set up with other breeds to, even the Pasos, Andies, etc. It would be interesting to see how many folks would show up...

[kigerfan]

The very first time I saw a Friesian was in the movie LadyHawke, a 1985 movie. He was ridden by Rutger Hauer. He was such an impressive horse! I was lucky enough in the early 1990s to have my thoroughbred stabled near a small, very particular Friesian breeder. I got to see and somewhat interact with the equine personalities up close and personal. Wow, what an animal, all the way around. Found blood or no found blood, that's an amazing breed for sure.
As far as the Kiger found blood, I read elsewhere on this board that the 'found blood' horses don't look like a kiger, so would not a point system eliminate them from registering by a low points score?