requesting opinions

[desperatehorsewife]

Okay...those horses were branded, though. So...why did no one check to see if their numbers matched up? The inspectors should have done that and declined admission right from the get go, if I'm reading this correctly.

And really, what can be done about it now? Nothing. Kiger and Riddle HMA horses weren't Kigers until labeled that, anyway. They were just duns from Beatty's Butte that were heavily marketed. (Yes, I understand they had high Spanish markers.)

I don't think there's anyway you're going to solve the problem without seriously ticking someone off no matter what is done, so why not just move forward? Accept that it happened, know that the blood isn't 'pure' (and honestly, none of it is), and move on?

[nrly]

easier said then done, but i wish they could, but till then my Kigers are registered and will alway be with Rick.
nola

[karismakigers]

desperatehorsewife said:

Okay...those horses were branded, though. So...why did no one check to see if their numbers matched up? The inspectors should have done that and declined admission right from the get go, if I'm reading this correctly.

And really, what can be done about it now? Nothing. Kiger and Riddle HMA horses weren't Kigers until labeled that, anyway. They were just duns from Beatty's Butte that were heavily marketed. (Yes, I understand they had high Spanish markers.)

I don't think there's anyway you're going to solve the problem without seriously ticking someone off no matter what is done, so why not just move forward? Accept that it happened, know that the blood isn't 'pure' (and honestly, none of it is), and move on?

Ah, a breath of fresh air. It takes a new person to step in and say "what the heck?".

There is so much into the history of the "Found" Kiger (and yes, they were all gasp "Found") that has been shared so many times in the past. Many of the message boards that held that info has long been abandoned. I am currently working on a website that will explain the Found Kiger according to BLM, the Found Kiger according to KMA and yes, even the Found Kiger in SMKR.

An "open studbood" isn't a new concept. The Kiger people didn't create this idea. AQHA use to have an open studbood, for $15 and an inspection, your horse could be registered as a QH.
Other numerous breeds had a period in their history of an "open studbook".

KMA (original registry) decided to open their studbook to other mustangs that fit the Kiger phenotypically. They were inspected. They had to produce offspring that passed inspection (3 for mares, 5 for stallions.) Unfortunately, they never restricted it to any specific HMA, specific time, nor specific breedings. Infant breed...mistakes, oh well. Except for a few geldings and a few others, most of the original "Found Kigers" actually fulfilled their reproduction requirement. Most of the registries that have the Found Kigers in their studbooks, have the bloodline identified as having origins other than Kiger/Riddle. The only registry that doesn't have the origins listed correctly is SMKR. The horses in SMKR that are from Paisley, Beatty Butte, or East Warm Springs were listed as Kiger, Riddle or were registered as half Kiger (somehow they qualify as HALF kiger???)

The studbook has been closed for many, many years (to new Founds). There aren't any new "Found Kigers" being brought in. There are only a handful of the original "Found" horses being bred, most are approaching their 20s. In another 5 years, I doubt there will be many original "Founds" still being bred.

Jillian

[desperatehorsewife]

Fresh air? Thank you!

Yes, move on, forget about it. Nothing wrong with an open studbook. Most breeds, regardless of species, have them. Maine Coon Cats, Pixie Bobs, and a whole host of others.

So, all in favor of moving on and leaving the quarreling, bickering registries to drown in their own bitterness, say aye!

And then let me introduce you to some lovely Beatty's Butte duns... ;D

[nrly]

yeah i was wondering do I need to open a stud book on riddle when I get ready to breed. who, where do I open it at and what is the cost.
nola

[spanishsagegrullas]

Probably to no one's surprize, I say "aye" also.

Well said, Desparate horsewife, but people may want to know your name, which I have forgotten from the wildhorseandburros list.

Glad to figure that Firecracker is back to feeling great, and I commend you for adopting a Kiger because you and your daughter (I think?) liked her, regardless of whether she is acceptable as breeding stock to a registry.

I have a lovely Beatys Butte dun mare myself, although Kigers are not just Beatys Butte duns, which I am sure you were not implying. I would be happy to discuss that in more detail off line with anyone via email or phone.

Diane P.
Spanish Sage Ranch

[desperatehorsewife]

Thank you, Dianne. Despite her lack of appropriate color and her obvious snarky attitude (which she's beginning to display the better she gets to feeling), I think she's going to be a very nice mare. I'd love to see how she does on cows.

As for my name...Tracey. You'll find me on the list or the mustang horse forum with that name. The homesteading forum I go as kesoaps. Other places, it's desperate horsewife. I've got a couple of blogs, one through which I found this forum as I noticed a link back here. I'd have done a proper introduction but didn't see a place for one here

[fantasykiger]

There are not any new found horses being brought in for years this is true, the trouble is found being bred to found creating more found bloodline horses. It would not be a problem except people who purchase these horse get to looking into the bloodlines and back ground after purchasing said horse and bragging to their nieghbor how they own a Kiger Mustang that goes to the wild Horses of eastern Oregon to only find out 'sorry charlie no you don't, you just got one that comes from parents that looked the part.' needless to say they are none to happy. I am not saying that we need be rid of all the founds but most certianly they need to be labeled on there papers and buyers need to be made aware. An open studbook would be awesome what in the world do any of these breeders have to hide. Except found horses.

[karismakigers]

fantasykiger said:

There are not any new found horses being brought in for years this is true, the trouble is found being bred to found creating more found bloodline horses. It would not be a problem except people who purchase these horse get to looking into the bloodlines and back ground after purchasing said horse and bragging to their nieghbor how they own a Kiger Mustang that goes to the wild Horses of eastern Oregon to only find out 'sorry charlie no you don't, you just got one that comes from parents that looked the part.' needless to say they are none to happy. I am not saying that we need be rid of all the founds but most certianly they need to be labeled on there papers and buyers need to be made aware. An open studbook would be awesome what in the world do any of these breeders have to hide. Except found horses.

First, there was never any mandate that Found be only bred to Kiger/Riddle horses. Might have been a mistake, but hindsight is 20/20. We can't fault people for all the things that they didn't think of. They did have a proving process though, Found mares had to produce 3 Kiger type foals (registered with KMA) and stallions had to have 5 Kiger type foals (registered with KMA). They never required it to be consectitive or with Kiger/Riddle mates.

There are only a handful of Found to Found breedings. One Found stallion was used in the midwest. He was bred to a few Found and a few Kiger/Riddle mares. Most of the offspring are in riding homes. I don't know of anyone continuing the bloodlines, so this impact was very small.

The other well known Found to found breedings to place using on stallion with a found dam. He was the main herd sire for three Kiger breeders. His offspring were great looking and were great work horses, most are riding or pack horses on big cattle ranches. He has a handful of breeding offspring in the Kiger world. I have one of his daughters and she is a found to found breeding. <gasp>. But she is one of our best producers, great minds, lovely gaits, great Kiger characteristics. She and all of my Found bloodline mares have always been labeled with their origins from day one. I have repeat buyers. Many don't mind the found blood, only a few (I can count them on one hand) raise any hell over the Found blood in the Kiger world.

By the way, KMA has an accessible studbook. All of their horses have their origins labeled and it is easy to trace pedigrees back to the freezebranded horses. Anybody can buy a studbook from KMA for $30 or so (price might have gone up since I last purchased one).

Jillian

[idahomustanger]

Hi all. I don't do much posting because I hate all of the bickering, but I am finding this thread is refreshing!! I've been hanging around all of the Kiger message boards for close to 9 years. Some people may know me as Nancy from Idaho or Idahomustanger. I have long held the opinion that ALL of the Kigers are Found horses, simply because they were found in the roundups of a few different HMA's and moved into two specific areas and managed by BLM. I have a two Foundation Kigers, both from the 1999 adoption and one mare that I bought as a yearling filly from a private breeder in 2000 . Yes, I thought she was a "real" Kiger... but discovered later that she has found blood. Does it make me love her less? Does it make her less valuable? Do I feel cheated because I didn't get a "real Kiger"?? Absolutely not. She has more Kiger attributes that one of the "real" Kigers we adopted. To me she is a Kiger. We picked her out as a yearling filly from approximately 15 other yearlings. I suppose to some people it makes her worthless. That is their opinion...and has no affect on what I believe. I hate the term "FAKE" with a passion. The term "found" I can live with. I have a real problem with the the term "PURE" in relation to the Kigers, because I do not believe that any mustang, Kiger or not, is pure. The ancestors of all of these horses ran wild free for hundreds of years, with no management or boundaries. I whole heartedly believe that the past is the past and cannot be undone. But we have got to move forward...in other words, "Put on your big girl panties and deal with it!! The best solution that I have heard so far is putting a percentage of found blood behind a horses name. I can wrap my brain around that one. I know there are some people that are still breeding found stock to found stock but I'm sure there are others, like myself, who are breeding to Foundation stock. If the studbooks have been closed for years...there isn't any new blood being introduced is there? (EXCEPT maybe by BLM!!) I was at the Kiger Adoption in November. Did anyone else see the three mares from Beatty's Butte that were in the farthest pen out??? They were far more typey than alot of the horses in the Kiger pens, and looked more like the mares that I have seen in the wild and at the earlier Kiger adoptions. I guess what I'm saying is... some of the genes that the Kigers were "started from" still exist in Beatty's Butte... that was VERY apparent to me. I also feel like desperatehorsewife, "they is what they is".... Lets just go forward. I would probably be more willing to participate in things if I didn't feel like horses with found blood are some plague to be avoided. Should anyone want to take a look at my website... it is www.idahokigers.com

[nrly]

Welcome Nancy good to see ya here and have your opinion posted.
nola

[idahomustanger]

Thanks Nola. Like I said - I'm a lurker!!! Even us lurker's have opinions! LOL!!

[desperatehorsewife]

Hooray for Nancy! Yes, they were all found somewhere and created by the people who found them.

Time to move on. Forget the whole found issue.

Next order of business??? ;D

[fantasykiger]

It is not a matter of which is better found, full, half, dun or gray. There are great, good and bad horses all of them called Kiger Mustangs. All I am saying is no more lies, secrets or sneaking around. I am all for moving forward. Keeping a postive open discussion is very refreshing change.

[nrly]

yes it is Tiffany but sad to say there are some who won't let it move on cause they have something to hide is what I am thinking.
nola