requesting opinions

[lindaf]

Veterans,

Would you please read Rick's post on the Kiger Board, "Where to go from here?," regarding the history of the found horses and let us know what you think? Is this an accurate history? It was interesting to read. I don't know any of these people, but if what he says is true, it's a pretty shameful story of greed and lies. If it is true, I understand why there is "bad blood."

Thanks,
Linda F

[staceyinoregon]

Where is the statement?

[Michelle Clarke]

Linda, while I don't know all the ins and outs of what happened back then (and I would venture few really do), the fact does remain that there are horses considered "found" or "fake".

Basically, from my understanding, some horses were brought from other HMA's and introduced to the Kiger herds. Good, bad or indifferent, some were sold to folks as "Kigers". Some breeders took these horses and they are the foundation for some of their breeding programs.

Why was this done? Some say greed, some say to expand the gene pool - I don't know which. Does it make them better or worse, agian I can't say.

Looking at it from a genetic standpoint, I can understand the idea. I also understand that we are talking about wild horses who know no boundries and there is other influence in the herds, lets be honest. Whether you talk about the found horses or the horses "crossing over", it happens. That is why you see more draft influence in the Riddle herd for example. Jillian can help out here, as she and her husband sure know alot more about the management side!

So, I don't know what someones idea of pure may be. Is a pure Kiger one that originates on those HMA's? If so, then the get of the found horses qualify. Then the get of a loose QH on the range qualify.

This goes back to being on the shoulders of the Kiger Breeders. Choosing the correct foundation horses is of paramount importance, because in the end, it is the future of the breed, bottom line.

I will say that 11 years ago, I flew out to Troy Oregon to buy some Lusitanos. While driving out, I saw a large herd of spanish dun/grullo horses. I slammed on the brakes and pulled over. They were VERY nice looking and VERY spanish looking. I drove up a little further and pulled in where someone was feeding yearlings. That is when I met Manford Isley. He was a nice man, and we chatted. When I mentioned I had bought some horses from Rick, he had nothing negative to say. He did have some nice horses though and they were so much more spanish looking then Ricks' at the time. I know I took some picts, I will see if I can dig them up.

[lindaf]

Stacey, I'm sorry to be so long answering your question. I couldn't get on the Kiger Board last night. Rick's post is under Found Horse Discussion > Where to go from here? forum1.aimoo.com/The_Kiger_Board

Michelle, it has puzzled me that Kigers are promoted as having strong Spanish/Sorraia ties, but other than the dun/grullo factor, it's hard to see that in many of the horses, head profile for example. I would think that preserving Spanish characteristics would be a priority. Were the Riddle and Kiger HMAs established to preserve dun horses, or Spanish-type horses, or dun horses with Spanish characteristics, or just a certain attractive herd of mustangs? As you said, regardless of the management goal, crossing over will occur; that's inherent in the mustang breed and part of what makes mustangs interesting. Someone said that you can't change the past; what's done is done. You just have to decide where to go from here. Surely hope it works out.

Thanks,
Linda

[nrly]

I read his post and I respect him so much more. I do believe that he is telling the truth. seems to me what he wants to do is correct some wrongs, and get the right horses in and the wrong ones out. Which is how it should be, He admits he made mistakes, and it takes a big person to admit he did something wrong. Thank you for stepping up to the plate.
nola

[lindaf]

Nola, I see a change in tone also. Linda

[Michelle Clarke]

Linda, one would like to think that they are Spanish type horses with dun factor, but I really don't belive that people really know what a spanish horse looks like considering the type of Kigers as of late and even in the past. It was once explained to me that the BLM is in the business of getting the horses adopted and before the main draw was local. What did they want - a ranch horse. So, the more QH looking ones were popular - as I was told.

Spanish/Iberian horses are the wave of the future and folks are looking for those looks, soft gaits and trainable temperments. Not to mention the soundness.

I hate to see the Kigers getting heavier because, just as the other Spanish Type horses, they are not built for it and will eventually have soundness issues.

When I saw the pictures today of the Sorraias in the Wellness magazine, they were spitting images of our Kigers - the Iberian type anyway. It thrilled me to say the least. If I did not read the caption, I would have belived them to be Kigers.

It has been my stand for years to continue to promote these horses for their ancestory and their uniqueness as Spanish/Iberian. Aside from the fact that it is true, it can open lots of doors in the future for the Kiger - but not if half of the people in the breed keep going against those facts and being negative about it - which there are plenty that do.

That brings us back to having a Spanish Breed Standard, which not one registry does. That has left us out of the inclusion of other Spanish/Iberian registries and circles.

[lindaf]

I agree that preserving the unique Spanish characteristics is the way to go. It seems that the BLM priorities differ from the priorities people who want to preserve the unique characteristics of the breed. I wish that the Kigers in the HMAs could be kept as Spanish as possible with proper management. Then if individual breeders want to breed for stockier horses, they can.

Why are "Spanish Mustangs" a different breed than mustangs with Spanish traits. I've looked at their web site.

Linda

[nrly]

that is one reason why we bought a Kiger Stallion to breed to our Kiger, and we want to get more mares Kiger mares. We hope to keep the Kiger line going. to keep these awesome traits alive and I want to say pure, but that isn't exactly what I mean. but close enough.
nola

[sonrisa98]

I read Ricks post on the other forum also. I don't know very many ppl on any of these Kiger forums. I believe it takes a strong person to come clean on what happened in the past with the Kiger registeries. The Kigers are not the only breed that has had these problems in the past and I think in this day and age the DNA testing is the best way to go for the Kigers. That will at least tell the truth. What scares me for the Kiger though, is all this bickering and fighting on these forums is going to push ppl away from the breed. They are going to go to a breed that doesn't have 6 registeries and is set in their rules for breed standards. I love my Kiger dearly, even though she is considered half and her sire is a found Kiger. But it seems that the KMA is the only registery that offers 1/2 registered Kigers. Are you wanting to be a full blood only breed or a 1/2, 3/4 and 7/8 also like the Arabians? Its just kinda scary to me to want to push a wonderful breed toward the public and be embarrassed at the same time because no one can agree on what a Kiger really is. I hope I don't offend anyone on what I'm trying to say. Just saying what I see is all.

[karismakigers]

>>>>I love my Kiger dearly, even though she is considered half and her sire is a found Kiger. But it seems that the KMA is the only registery that offers 1/2 registered Kigers. Are you wanting to be a full blood only breed or a 1/2, 3/4 and 7/8 also like the Arabians? >>>>

KHAR also allows partblood Kigers. KHAR's Partblood category allows any % of Kiger as long as there is at least one cross to a Kiger in the ancestry. www.kigerhorse.org

Jillian

[nrly]

if a person can show that their horse is full or 1/2 kiger then they should be able to register them. but I also believe that 1/2 is as far as they should go. Indian tribes only allow their people to register if they have 1/4 th or more. Makes since to me if you want to keep this breed as it is. but I believe we owners of Kigers should have a say in the regulations, and standards to be set. It is after all only fair.
nola

[Michelle Clarke]

Nola, I understand how you feel about having a minimum of 50% Kiger. But to tell you the truth, having a partbred catagory in a registry is the new upcoming thing in major registries. Not only does this expand membership and support, it also opens the door for bigger shows and promotions, which means a bigger draw of crowds and potential customers.

The International Andalusain Lusitano Horse Association has been proposed a partbred catagory to allow even 1/4 purebred blood. Right now one parent has to be a purebred, but they are even talking about allowing registry for 1/2 and 1/2 and still being considered half.

Of course, the horses still must fit into some sort of standard or type. The IALHA accepts three standards: the PRE (Pure Raza Espanol) which are the standards set by the CRIA in Spain; the PSL (Pure Sang Lusitano) standards set by the Portuguese; and the PSP (Pure Spanish Portuguese) which are basically American standards as no where else in the world are the Andalusian and Lusitano cross considered a purebred (story for another day!).

When you look at the Sorraia, you can see what problems are being had in trying to preserve and breed them: lower fertility and white markings for starters. This shows the need for "new" blood. That is why even preserves look for new blood that compliment the type.

Warmbloods do the same thing. They put in other breeds when needed to expand and improve the gene pool, then go back breeding "pure" to pure, but sooner or later add back in another Thoroughbred or such here and there. Actually right now, they are adding back in Lusitano blood in alot of lines. Just a fact of breeding. Some breeds because of their vast breeding practices and popularity (like the QH), don't need to because of the varied gene pool already in the breed.

There is good reason to add in other blood when done right and there is an art to crossbreeding, it is not just random crossing and hoping for the best.

With all the crap still going round and round, it really still seems as if the KHAR is the most progessive minded and "user friendly" registry getting established. I will belive the merger of four other registries when I see it actually happen.

[lindaf]

Well, it shows how clueless I am. I just assumed that when you registered your horse there was some kind of representation, board of directors, committees....duh! I'm not much into one man/woman shows and arbitrary decisions.

I think registering 1/2 Kigers is important for all the reasons stated. It will bring more diversity and vitality to the breed.

That's interesting about the need to breed back in new genes to a population from time to time. So the white on the Sorraias is due to diminishing diversity in their gene pool? What about the white on the Kigers? Or is that because there have been so many different horses in the mustang background that there is every kind of gene out there?

I wonder if setting certain genetic markers will be what eventually establishes a horse as a Kiger regardless of the geographic location it is gathered from.

I don't see the BLM doing the careful management necessary to improve Kigers. It seems to me that the future of the breed's improvement lies with experienced, conscientious breeders who look beyound the goal of short term financial gain.

Interesting discussion.
Linda

[Michelle Clarke]

I highly suggest the reading and serious consideration of this article:

www.grandin.com/references/horse.genetics.html

If you desire to learn more, Dr. Temple Grandins book, Animals in Translation, is a MUST MUST MUST read.