requesting opinions

[nightangel]

That is a VERY VERY VERY good book. ;D

[nrly]

that makes sense but there should be a cut off set. I am for letting 1/2 kigers register, if we go lower then that the blood line is getting thin is my thought.
nola

[fantasykiger]

Most all of the registries except 1/2 Kigers that I know of. My only issue of late has been for the registries to define more clearly just what is a Kiger Mustang. In a perfect world there would be one standard of perfection to which all the registries and BLM would agree apon. It seems so simple to say it, yet is so very difficult to accomplish.

[nrly]

someone said that DNA will be the deciding factor, I just can't remember where I read it. but if a horse shows in its DNA that it is a kiger then to me it is a kiger.
nola

[lindaf]

Nola, I don't know if anyone has written a genetic description of a Kiger yet. I know there are certain Spanish markers a lot of them have. I think that would be one of the things the experts have to decide.

Was it you who asked the question about WHO would be doing the decision-making? Good question. Wouldn't it be interesting if there were a decision-making committee. Each registry would have a representative, then all the Kiger/1/2 Kiger/and, yes, found Kiger owners get to vote on the remainer of the committee who would represent us?

If DNA were used, we'd have to have all our horses analyzed and put in a data base along with the DNA analysis of all the BLM Kigers past and present. Once that is established, any horse, no matter it's HMA that fits the specified genetic profile would be a Kiger. I suspect, though, that certain physical traits that are consistent with being Kiger, would be included in the identification. It would be a complex matter, but I bet it would identify more horses as Kigers than what there are now.

Michelle, is it even possible to establish such a profile? (I haven't read the article on horse genetics yet.)

It still goes back to the question, What makes a Kiger a Kiger?

Anyone interested in starting a thread like, "To me a Kiger is a horse that...." ? I'd be very interested in what everyone thinks in addition to the characteristics listed by the various registries. I think we would quickly see why it has been so hard to arrive at a list of characteristics everyone can agree upon.

Linda

[karismakigers]

nrly said:

if a person can show that their horse is full or 1/2 kiger then they should be able to register them. but I also believe that 1/2 is as far as they should go. Indian tribes only allow their people to register if they have 1/4 th or more. Makes since to me if you want to keep this breed as it is. but I believe we owners of Kigers should have a say in the regulations, and standards to be set. It is after all only fair.
nola

Nola,

The Partblood Category was borne out of the wants of many in the Kiger community that wanted a partblood category to register their 1/2 bloods with. The owners of the half bloods asked that we also allow them to help record the lineage if they were to breed their half Kiger to another breed. A Partblood Category does NOT take away from those wanting to breed Kiger to Kiger. It just offers a place for people to record their partbloods (notice the category is not called halfblood). It was the Kiger people's wants that KHAR catered to. All partbloods have a % of Kiger blood listed on their certificate. I know specifically of one gorgeous loud pinto 1/2 Kiger stallion. His owners have been producing 1/4 Kiger babies that inherit the loud color, with beautiful dun factor, and the Kiger presence with a little more muscling. They aren't harming the Kiger breed by making this cross. In fact, several that fell in love with the personalities of the 1/4 have gone on to buy a full Kiger.

If you don't think that the Partblood Category is appropriate or needs to be more restricted, you could join KHAR, propose a change that will be on the ballot for the 2008 Annual Meeting. Then those who are members can vote to accept or decline your proposal. KHAR was sent up to give all members a voice in the organization and its regulations and rules.

Jillian

[karismakigers]

nrly said:

someone said that DNA will be the deciding factor, I just can't remember where I read it. but if a horse shows in its DNA that it is a kiger then to me it is a kiger.
nola

What we are wanting in the profiling of the Kiger is light-years ahead of the science currently out there. For one thing, Kigers are merely a drop in the bucket when one looks at the shear numbers and $$$ behind other breeds such as Morgan, Peruvian Paso, Arabian, etc. The science world will investigate only those things which have a large bankroll to pay for the incredible expense of genetic testing. Finding the "Kiger" gene is not like to happen in the next 25 or possibly even 50 years.

With that said, there was one mtDNA study done in German and Portugal. The mtDNA is passed on through the maternal line, dam to daughter and so on. It is passed from dam to son, but it stops there as he is unable to pass it along. Twenty seven Kigers were included in the study. The Kigers fell into two groups, the Lusitano cluster (A3) and the Andalusian cluster (D1, D2, D3). Many of the other mustang groups tested (Pryor and Sulphur) fell into the Andalusian cluster. Kigers were the only mustang to have the Lustiano cluster. Interestingly enough, there was one 'found' Kiger mare line tested from the Sheepshead HMA. She tested in the Andalusian cluster, incidently, so did Steens Kiger.

Right now, the only DNA work that is going on is comparing an offspring to potential parents in the attempt to prove parentage. There is no Kiger identifying gene located as of yet.

Jillian

[nrly]

well allot of questions asked and more questions are coming up. when it is all sorted out I feel we owners of Kiger whether full or 1/2 should have a say on how we want this to be done. Kinda like an HOA of sorts. And elections held each year if someone who isn't doing what is right or over stepping the boundries then they can be voted out and a new member put in. All I want is this bickering to stop, and someway for all Kiger owners to represented,and this breed treated fairly. Some times my mind gors faster then my hands so i do not make much sense I hope i am now.
nola

[lindaf]

Jillian,

I have a record of my mare's dam's DNA analysis, and I know that her sire's DNA record is on file. I will try to get a copy. Do you recommend that I have my Kiger's DNA tested for the record?

The fact that the Sheepshead mare had DNA similar to some Kigers seems to indicate that certain found Kigers have a legitimate place even if they came from a geographically different area.

Does having the Lusitano marker indicate a closer relationship to the Sorraia horse than horses with Andalusian markers? Or are Sorraia genes in both the Protugese and the Spanish horses?

Is it possible to have a Spanish phenotype and not possess either the Lusitano or Andalusian genes?

You're right Nola. More and more questions.
Linda F

[lindad]

Nola and Newbies,
Much of what you and other newbies are trying to sort out has been hashed to death repeatedly in the past. Many thoughtful people on all sides of the fence had many suggestions, and compromises to address the "found horse" issue. In the Kiger's early history some people decided to incorporate similar dun horses, some with Spanish traits outside of the original Kiger herd. That decision became the basis for the dissension within the Kiger community, and has been wildly debated, and has turned into brawls that resemble the old wild west gone cyber space. It became known as the infamous "monster thread" and took place on both of the two original Kiger message boards, about this time two years ago. It is acknowledged that some of the found horses are better examples of dun Spanish type horses than those from the originally discovered Kiger herd. So found does not necessarily equate with inferior as some interpret it to mean. The past cannot be rewritten. It has been done, and is a fact of life regardless if it was for good or for greed. The original motives and intentions of those initially involved make little difference at this point in time. What was done, is done. The question now is, how do we deal with the found horse issue, and the resulting proliferation of Kiger registries, that divide us and dilute our purpose and ultimately threaten the integrity and survival of the Kiger breed? Good intentions sometimes create unexpected and unintended negative consequences. Likewise, poor intentions, can also result in unexpected positive results.

There are people that are unwilling to address the found horse issue at all, others are unwilling to make compromises that would allow us to move forward to further develop the breed. Some have taken their stance to extremes not considering the inevitable consequences to the breed or to the people dedicated to the Kiger horse while making their decisions, and their demands. Some appear blinded by their own agenda, despite their dedication. Others prefer to attempt to solve problems for the greater good, but find it impossible to please most let alone everyone. There are people at the head of the KMA that support found horses who despite the outcry from many, refuse to even continue discussions. They closed ranks, and KMA then excluded non KMA members from their discussion board. They don't see found horses as a negative issue so see no need to fix it. Some likely fear losing status of their breeding stock. Can't say that I blame them for the ban entirely because many were very disrespectful and inappropriate. Accusations and insults were hurled back and forth. No doubt, some took offense to my points of view, despite my attempts to respect various sides of the debate, and to search for potential solutions, as did many others. However, ideas emerged out of the turmoil as chief players defended their positions and battled it out on a public forum and supporters and opponents chimed in their opinions often without knowledge or understanding of the issues. None the less, ideas coalesced into a number of proposals. One that I liked would accommodate the original found horses, identify the origins of all Kigers, and institute ways to manage future impact, by encouraging the increased percentage of original kiger blood, in future found horse offspring. The original 19 found horses had reproduced to approximately 300 offspring, some of which still had no original Kiger blood in their veins. The 300 or so found blood horses now make up for approximately 1/3 of KMA registered horses. Found horses were not differentiated in the KMA registry, and buyers were often often unaware or misinformed.
I hope that someone saved the monster thread. My computer died as I was about to print it to be able to study it as it contained so much history that I wanted to better understand. I had never understood the issue prior to that discussion, nor took sides. I have friends on both sides of this fence each with rationalizations for their point of view.
Some have made attempts to create new registries to address, fix, or manage the issues created by the former registries, (and I applaud them all). However, the problem is we now have too many registries and not enough people behind any one of them. Of course, none of the registry attempts is perfect, very few things are. Each has it's strengths, with plenty of blood sweat and tears behind them. We need a united effort that the majority can get behind. The fragmentation caused by the the found horse issue and the resulting feuds and excessive number of registries is destroying the Kiger breed. Many people, myself included, have not registered their Kigers at all waiting to see what will be the outcome. I lost a breeding last year because I didn't have my stallion registered. So I am paying the price to stand my ground. It can't begin to compare to the losses many have paid for the inability to resolve this issue. Our Kigers pay the highest price. Many quality people and some talented horsemen have left or never joined our ranks due to this endless battle. Newbies are like children, who see things simply, and just want to get things going. They focus on the joy of the treasure and opportunities it presents, not the problems. Too often, they become discouraged or abandon their dreams, despite the qualities the Kigers possess.

So the Spanish Treasure Rediscovered becomes tarnished by the futile and endless bickering and refusal to compromise. What are we going to do about it? What are we willing to do? Are we willing to sacrifice egos, personal agendas, vendettas, yes even personal gain? Are we willing to let those blinded by their own agenda have the last say? Are we willing to work together to protect the treasure entrusted to us, those of us that believed the "hype" and discovered that there was indeed truth within the myth! Are we ready to amalgamate the best efforts of those that have made an admirable beginnings and will they consider further honing of some of the details? Are we ready to learn from our past and then build on that foundation, or will we allow it to continue to erode? Are we willing to let one of the finest surviving remnants of the wild Spanish horses in America to fade into obscurity? Do we have the "SPIRIT" to salvage the Kiger breed, or are we all willing to let the Kiger Mustang Breed become the tragic ending to a once delightful and happy story, merely a fleeting "fad" and a sad footnote in the the History of the Horse in America. What are you willing to do? Each of us is responsible for the decisions we make, and the actions we take, and how it affects the Kiger Mustang. If not, we should have left them in peace to survive as they did for hundreds of years in the high desert mountains of Oregon.

Linda Darling

[lindad]

Temple Grandin is an amazing women with exceptional gifts that benefit animals and humans alike, and can greatly help us to understand animals and people better. Animals in Translation is a wonderful contribution! She is like a newbie with great wisdom, who discovers the answers by observing the obvious that is hidden to most of us, behind our own little world, and personal agendas. I wonder what would happened if we could experience Kigers and the breed dilemma through Dr. Grandins eyes? Hmmmmmmm.
Linda D

[karismakigers]

lindaf said:

Jillian,

I have a record of my mare's dam's DNA analysis, and I know that her sire's DNA record is on file. I will try to get a copy. Do you recommend that I have my Kiger's DNA tested for the record?

To register, yes. Your mare would have to be DNA'ed and compared to the sire and dam.

lindaf said:

The fact that the Sheepshead mare had DNA similar to some Kigers seems to indicate that certain found Kigers have a legitimate place even if they came from a geographically different area.

Yes. It is a shame that there weren't more "found" lines in the study. It might have put an end to this whole debacle. The Sheepshead horses being the same mtDNA as several of the Kigers in the study isn't surprising. In early management plans, BLM notes that in certain areas there were no fences between Sheepshead HMA and Riddle Mtn. They created Heath Creek as a no-horse buffer zone between the two HMAs sometime in the 1990s.
Note mtDNA and DNA are not the same. mtDNA is mitochrondria DNA and is passed along the maternal line. Regular DNA is passed from both sire and dam. mtDNA is used to decipher relationships between breeds or strains of a species. It does not give any consideration to the male tail, or the paternal lineage. While regular DNA is used to determine genetic relatedness/inheritance of two or more samples, i.e determining sire or dam of an animal.

lindaf said:

Does having the Lusitano marker indicate a closer relationship to the Sorraia horse than horses with Andalusian markers? Or are Sorraia genes in both the Protugese and the Spanish horses?

Yes, the Lusitano cluster is closer to Sorraia than Andalusian cluster. According to one of the researchers that I talked to:

"There are just two [mutations] between A3 and JSO41, where some of the Sorraias clustered. Then between JSO41 and A1, where the rest
of the Sorraias clustered, there are 2 more mutations. They are all boughs on the same
branch."

There were a few Spanish Mustangs that were found to actually have the true Sorraia mtDNA. SMR-registered and SSMA-registered ones, and they stem from only three
different lines, Little Thing and Blue Corn (Utah Bookcliffs from way back when), and Little
Bit (feral old Mexico).

lindaf said:

Is it possible to have a Spanish phenotype and not possess either the Lusitano or Andalusian genes?

Well, I have to get in touch with one of the researchers to be certain of my interpretation of the data. But it appears that one Lipizan sample clusters with the C group, while another Lipizan sample clusters with D1. And another Lipizan sample is near group G. Also one lone Andalusian sample clustered with the E group.

Jillian McIntosh

[nrly]

to confusing for me
nola

[karismakigers]

nrly said:

to confusing for me
nola

Hi Nola,

What part was confusing? I'd like to help you understand it if I could. Let me know which parts hung you up and I'll see if I can reword them.

Jillian

[DianneC]

Since the Lusitano and Andalusian were the same until recent times, and the Lipizan is also more recent this is confusing to me as well. How can there be a distinct modern day Lusitano gene and a distinct modern day Andalusian genes in horses that are not direct descendants? So how then would these markers have come to be? Unless there was a common ancestor way back when, that produced the horses that became the Kiger and the L, A and L.
Ron Harding said that he believes that the vaqueros from California came up to Oregon in the 1800's, bringing their prized horses with them. I believe it was typical to turn many horses out on the range and then gather the colts and break them. This is a new idea to me but it makes sense. Would that explain these markers?