requesting opinions

[DianneC]

Linda, thanks for your long post. Some of the people at the root of the fight are not now directly involved with the Kiger due to age, illness and injury. To ask them to post somewhere that Rick is right and confess all their "wrongdoings" is not reasonable. It would be like asking Rick or anyone else to post somewhere what he did wrong and apologize for it. Things were done wrong, other things were done wrong. Maybe the next generation of Kiger owners will do better.
At their meeting during adoption the KMA voted on putting an asterisk next to horses with found blood in the stud book. It did not pass because people wanted to see a percentage of found blood as well. The motion is being reworded and will be up for vote by mail or in person at the next meeting of KMA members. If you would like to vote on this issue become a member. Its better to be part of the solution than part of the problem I think.

[karismakigers]

diannec said:

Since the Lusitano and Andalusian were the same until recent times, and the Lipizan is also more recent this is confusing to me as well. How can there be a distinct modern day Lusitano gene and a distinct modern day Andalusian genes in horses that are not direct descendants? So how then would these markers have come to be? Unless there was a common ancestor way back when, that produced the horses that became the Kiger and the L, A and L.
Ron Harding said that he believes that the vaqueros from California came up to Oregon in the 1800's, bringing their prized horses with them. I believe it was typical to turn many horses out on the range and then gather the colts and break them. This is a new idea to me but it makes sense. Would that explain these markers?

Actually, the Lusitano and the Andalusian aren't the same. Only the US has blurred the lines between the two. If you think this scrabble in the Kiger world is bad, we have nothing on the wars among the Lusitano & Andalusian people and their various registries. ;D
An interesting article to read is: www.spanishvisionfarm.com/arti_sp_so_far_so_close.htm

I'm sure Michelle can do a better job than I of describe the difference between the two since she deals directly with the Iberian breeds.

There isn't a distinct Andalusian and distinct Lusitano gene. I think I have to rephrase what I wrote to prevent misinterpretations.

The Andalusian cluster isn't a gene. Each cluster A through G are like drawers in a chest. Each drawer has a unique sequence of "genes" to access it. If horse A is represented as an Arabian from the US and has the sequence that allows it to be classified with the F drawer then it is placed in drawer F. But there was also a sample of a horse B that was represented to be an Arabian from Iran and has the sequence that allows it to be classified with the D drawer. So, how can that be? Well, perhaps somewhere in the far distant past of the Arabian from Iran was a mare that came from the same maternal (female) line as the ancestral horse that gave rise to the Andalusian cluster. The Iranian Arabian inherited that sequence from its maternal line. While both are Arabians, they had different maternal lineages.



You have to remember that in the early history of horses, breeds aren't as clean cut as they are in the 21st century. Horses were classified by where they resided and sometimes by whom owned/bred them, and sometimes how they looked. Andalusian were from the region of Andalusia. Horse "shows" or "meets" would occur every year, where the villagers would bring their prized stallions down the town square to advertise for breeding. Some would compete in races, others would just be paraded around.

As people got together they decided on creating strains. These strains of horses would have similar appearance but might not be the same "breed". These strains later became breeds (as we know the term today). Andalusian mares were used in the creation of Thoughbreds, the so called Royal mares were actually of the Andalusian strain. When the people decided to gather a group of horses to create the TB, they included some of these Royal Mares in the mix. That is why there is a TB sample that falls into the Andalusian cluster.

So what does this mean for the Kiger; the 27 tested Kigers fall into two types. One group clusters with the Lusitano type while the other clusters with the Andalusian type. The first group has a sequence in the mtDNA that links them to the Lusitano cluster through an unbroken maternal line. The second group has a sequence in the mtDNA that links them to the Andalusian cluster through an unbroken maternal line.

Examining the two breeds (Lusitano and Andalusian): The Andalusian cluster has samples from both Andalusian breed and Lusitano breed in it. The Lusitano cluster has samples from Lusitano breed in it. No Andalusians were found to link with the Lusitano cluster. This means that some mares that were labeled at sometime in history as being Lusitano might have been actually Andalsians that got renamed by the village people. And those Lusitanos that clustered with Lusitano seem to be a pure line from the actual Lusitano strain.

Releasing horses in the "wild" was common place even up until the 1960s. After harvesting was done for the year, farmers would release their horses (including their drafts) so that they didn't have to feed them during the winter. They would round them up in spring, re-tune them or break out new mounts and go right to work in the fields.

Hopefully I haven't muddied the explanation too much...

Jillian

[nrly]

well I do feel rick has appologised for his doings when he admitted what he did. To me that makes him the bigger man and those who cast stones are a small minded and want to live in the past.Rick wants this all to move forward in the best interest of the Kiger Breed. And I do hope that it will happen.
nola

[lindaf]

I am finding this discussion totally fascinating. Thank you everyone for taking the time to explain. You have put a lot of time into helping us understand.

How much does it cost to have the mtDNA work done? Do I just ask my vet about it?

What if all Kiger owners had the analysis done and put on record? Is that a realistic goal?

Does anyone know how many Kigers, including domestic descendants and found horses, there are? Has anyone compiled a directory of Kiger owners, or would you have to refer to the different registries?

What role can newcomers to Kiger ownership play in all this?

Actually, Rick has acknowledged that he has made mistakes (on the other board). Maybe others can do the same.

Thanks everyone. Linda

[karismakigers]

lindaf said:

How much does it cost to have the mtDNA work done? Do I just ask my vet about it?

What if all Kiger owners had the analysis done and put on record? Is that a realistic goal?

Hi Linda,

mtDNA isn't done as often as regular DNA analysis. For another mtDNA study to be done that was focused on Kigers would probably need a fiancial backing of $50,000 just to start. I know that the group that did the original mtDNA study that included Kigers is trying to get another grant to continue the work. mtDNA studies are rather involved processes, much more complicated than the "simple" DNA work that is used to compare offspring to parents, or determine if a horse carries the cream gene, etc. With regular DNA, you have your results in a few days. With mtDNA studies, it might be months to years before you have your results. In mtDNA you are comparing hundreds of samples and depending on their sequences how they are related. With regular DNA you are comparing one to three samples to each other.

It would be great if we could submit all the Kigers (domestic and wild and "found") to determine the relatedness of the breed/strain/type. Until a grant comes through, we can't proceed with the necessary genetic studies.

lindaf said:

Does anyone know how many Kigers, including domestic descendants and found horses, there are? Has anyone compiled a directory of Kiger owners, or would you have to refer to the different registries?

There are probably 3000-5000 "Kigers": those registered in the various registries, those not registered, those freezebranded as Kiger/Riddle, those bred in captivity, and those that are 'lost' (sold without papers, sold at sales, etc.). With a lot of the 1980s horses dying off now due to age, we are probably down around 3500. I had done a count of all horses removed/adopted from Kiger or Riddle since 1987, but I forget what the actual number of freezebranded horses were. I'll have to find my notes.

lindaf said:

What role can newcomers to Kiger ownership play in all this?

I think newcomers to Kiger ownership can help by letting those interested in going forward with a relation study know that they have a Kiger, and what their Kiger's lineage (if known) is. When calls for samples are made, that they be willing and able to provide a sample of their Kiger. And I think that newcomers should keep asking questions. It is only by studying the past, does one understand how, where, and why the breed is today. It also prevents us from making the same mistakes as we go into the future. I had at one time written down a timeline and history of the Kiger breed from 1975 forward as it was documented in the BLM paperwork and the old KMA minutes. I had posted it several times on the two previous kiger boards when I thought it might clarify some points during the discussions. I'll have to see if I still have that file intact (hard drive failed last year), if not, I'll have to spend some time recreating it.

Jillian

[nrly]

I hope we all can come together and get this 4 regestries done and make a directory of all Kigers and owners. Here is another question. what about those regesteries out side of the United States are they on board.
nola

[lindaf]

I think newcomers to Kiger ownership can help by letting those interested in going forward with a relation study know that they have a Kiger, and what their Kiger's lineage (if known) is. When calls for samples are made, that they be willing and able to provide a sample of their Kiger.

OK, count me in for that. I agree that it would be great to have a study that includes domestic, wild and found Kigers.

I'm going now to read the articles people have provided links to...doing my homework.

Linda F

[kigerfan]

Excellent article, very interesting. I had a paint horse that was a 'medicine hat' gelding. He was stuborn, vindictive, and full of anger, beautiful horse, aweful to be around. I always treated him well but he definitely wasn't the horse for me. He would get so mad his skin would turn a bright pink all the way down his neck and his eyes would get bloodshot. I had a ranch owner tell me I didn't know how to handle him and that's why I was having difficulty with him. He never tried to buck me off or anything, but when the ranch owner got on him he turned into a regular bronc. The ranch owner handed him back to me and told me I had an uncontrollable horse. I didn't, I could control him but he wasn't a pleasure to be around. I ended up selling him.

[staceyinoregon]

Michelle

You are so right about Temple Grandin. If I am understanding this correctly---we are looking at 30 or 32 original horses. That just does not seem like a viable gene pool. Tell me what you (you all think)

[staceyinoregon]

Michelle

You are so right about Temple Grandin. If I am understanding this correctly---we are looking at 30 or 32 original horses. That just does not seem like a viable gene pool. Tell me what you (you all) think.

[karismakigers]

staceyinoregon said:

Michelle

You are so right about Temple Grandin. If I am understanding this correctly---we are looking at 30 or 32 original horses. That just does not seem like a viable gene pool. Tell me what you (you all think)

Remember that there were 3 HMAs for Kigers in the beginning, Riddle Mountain, Smyth Creek and East Kiger. Then, Smyth & East Kiger combined to become Kiger HMA. Here is a list of horses that were released into the "Kiger" HMAs.

1976 Riddle: 7 Horses (found in Riddle)
1977 Riddle: 7 Horses (found in Beatty Butte)
1977 East Kiger: 20 Horses (found in Beatty Butte)
1977 East Kiger: 2 Horses (found in East Kiger)
1977 Smyth Creek: 1 Horse (found in South Steens)
1978 Smyth Creek: 7 Horses (found in Jackie Butte)
1978 Smyth Creek: 2 Horses (found in Palomino Butte)
1979 Riddle Mnt: 2 horses (from Sheepshead)
1981 East Kiger: 1 Horse (from Sand Springs)
1985 Smyth Creek: 1 Horse (from Sheepshead)
1989 East Kiger: 1 Horse (from Sheepshead)
1991 Kiger: 1 Horse (from Sheepshead), same horse was re-released in 1994.

Each horse had varying degrees of impact on the herd; some were reproducing for many years, others were culled or removed because of excess. One brindle mare was part of the original release in 1977. She was last released in 1993. Mesteno was also last released in 9/1993 (I think he might have been in during the 1996 gather, but haven't found the release paperwork on him for anything past 1993.) Another mare marked "original mare" with a '76 birth year was released in 1983. Other older horses that were released but no specific notes were made about them were: '73 dun stallion released in 1989, '73 dun stallion released in 1993, '78 dun mare released in 1993. Many of the horses gathered in the late 1970s and early 1980s were never freezebranded, so it is difficult to track specific horses.

So, essentially 52 horses made up the gene pool for the Kigers. The genepool for Kigers have always been kept small due to the confines of the HMA range allotment. There is only so much graze available. In 2003, samples were pulled from 14 Riddle horses during the gather. Seventeen genetic marker systems were analyzed: seven were blood groups and ten were biochemical polymorphisms. The results of the 2004 study were: one new variant was observed in the Riddle herd that was not seen in the 1993 analysis (the Abc marker) and this showed up in only one horse individual. There were 17 variants observed in 1993 that were not found in 2003. This might be due to the small sample size and it is possible that these variants aren't lost. Of the 57 variants seen in 2003, 10 or 17.5% were at low frequency and are at risk of loss. Genetic variation in the Riddle herd is high, however, there does appear to be a reduction in variation in the herd from 1993 to 2003 and this does not appear to simply be due to the difference in sample size. The pattern of variation suggests population bottleneck effects. Under recommendations in the study report: No immediate action is needed for the Riddle Moutain herd because variability levels are high. However, the rate of loss of variation is a potential concern. This is clearly associated with the population size and possible past gather activity. The AML is low enough that it is possible that deleterious recessive genes could become common enough to show an effect despite high variability levels. The herd should be monitored for possible physical defects or lowered fecundity.

Something to think about in the years to come.....

Jillian

[desperatehorsewife]

Indian tribes only allow their people to register if they have 1/4 th or more.

This is actually a money issue. They get gov. funds and decided they didn't want to share anymore Not that it has anything to do with Kiger genetics...just caught my eye!

Explain to me what a 'found' Kiger is, please.

[fantasykiger]

desperatehorsewife click here for an explination on the found horse forum1.aimoo.com/The_Kiger_Board/Found-Horse-Discussions/Where-to-go-from-here-1-1013101.html

[desperatehorsewife]

I'm really having a hard time following that, but if I'm getting the gist of it, it's that some horses early on were brought in from other HMA's that resembled Kigers, were inspected and approved as Kigers.

Now here I'm lost...did somehow now their paper work (KMA registry) say there were born in Kiger or Riddle?

And since Kigers came from Beatty's Butte (and apparently Paisley), aren't they all technically found?

[fantasykiger]

No they were never said to be born in Kiger or Riddle I believe. Simply registered thru the KMA as Kiger Mustangs which they were not. More were brought in and registered and then they were bred to each other found to found or bred to Kiger Mustangs and registered as full Kiger Mustangs because there parents were registered as such. Sold as full Kiger Mustangs to folks who later found out they purchased a horse that could not be traced back to the Kiger or Riddle HMAs there for the horse was a fake or found horse. I think they were called found horses because someone went out and found them because they were dun or looked simular to the Kigers, they were registered after going thru a inspection proccess with the KMA as Kiger Mustangs even though they never set foot in the Kiger or Riddle HMAs. See back in the day Kigers were worth alot of money and there was not enough of them so folks went out looking for Mustangs that looked like em' to add to their captive herds.