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Post by lindad on Jan 18, 2009 21:30:58 GMT -5
Kelly, reread the post. I said Mestena was gathered from the Kiger or Riddle HMA for the first BLM Kiger adoption. She was claybank/grey and is NOT a found, but an original Kigeror offspring. Someone else thought that grey came from found blood vs the original Kigers placed on the Kiger/Riddle HMAs. Indeed, the BLM may have been introduced more greys later but what the BLM puts on the HMAs are not the horses termed "found." The term found is used to describe horses that were never part of the herds on Kiger or Riddle HMAs. Hope this clarifies any confusion about what I posted. Again, I am repeating what I have previously read in the message boards, so I can be in error, that is why I invited correction. I recall this info because my horses are from this blood line and I was surprised that Mestena was grey. My recall ain't what it used to be.
Linda D
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Post by lindad on Jan 18, 2009 21:33:20 GMT -5
Barbhorses, do you own La Victoria?
Linda D
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Post by barbhorses on Jan 18, 2009 22:01:14 GMT -5
Yes, I do.
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Post by karismakigers on Jan 18, 2009 22:20:26 GMT -5
It isn't convenient Jillian. It is fact. If you would like more information about this fact then contact Chad Hunter who is responsible for the Sulphur gather. The BLM did NOT set up the Sulphur HMA with the same concept as the Kiger and Riddle HMA. <snip> So, you will have the Iberian horses that we want to preserve, the mixed bred horses, and the chunky draft horses. All under the name of "Sulphur". Confusing isn't it? It is both convenient and fact. I don't understand while you want to ignore horses on the HMA that don't fit into your model of the Iberian/Spanish Sulphur. I find it amusing that you want to proclaim the Sulphurs as a single source Iberian horse that was isolated when there are non-types within the exact HMA that they come from. Just accept them all as Sulphurs and work at getting the BLM to set aside a protected HMA to protect the Iberian types found in the Sulphur HMA. I never stated that D cluster is special or exclusive. The A3 or Lusitano cluster is unique in that the Kigers are the only mustang group to have it. It was not found in the Sulphurs, Spanish Mustangs, nor the Pryors; only the Kigers (as far as North American mustang groups). I stated that the Kigers share the D cluster with Sulphurs. Just as you use it for evidence that Sulphurs are spanish, the Kigers can equally use it. Please check your sources, while it was puplished in 1997, the actual study was done in 1995. At that time (1995), it had not been "found" in any of the horse breeds sampled to date. I'm waiting on confirmation from Dr. Cothran, but I believe the Est-G variant has been found in a Brazilian breed of horse. If this is true, than it wouldn't be unique to Sulphurs, however, I will admit that it would lend more evidence of Spanish heritage in the Sulphurs as the Brazilian breed is thought to be old spanish blood. Jillian |
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Post by canadiankigers on Jan 18, 2009 22:24:20 GMT -5
Kelly, reread the post. I said Mestena was gathered from the Kiger or Riddle HMA for the first BLM Kiger adoption. She was claybank/grey and is NOT a found, but an original Kigeror offspring. Someone else thought that grey came from found blood vs the original Kigers placed on the Kiger/Riddle HMAs. Indeed, the BLM may have been introduced more greys later but what the BLM puts on the HMAs are not the horses termed "found." The term found is used to describe horses that were never part of the herds on Kiger or Riddle HMAs. Hope this clarifies any confusion about what I posted. Again, I am repeating what I have previously read in the message boards, so I can be in error, that is why I invited correction. I recall this info because my horses are from this blood line and I was surprised that Mestena was grey. My recall ain't what it used to be. Linda D Sorry about the misunderstanding and I apologuise if I had in any way inferred that Mestena was of found blood. My intention was to point out that the found blood in my lines came from Dakota (Paisley HMA). I do happen to agree with you on the definition of "found". |
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Post by nightrider on Jan 18, 2009 22:57:02 GMT -5
Thinking out loud here, where is the common ground in this issue?
First of all it is nice to converse with people that are civil on such a controversial issue.
Perhaps the found blood is alive and well but the old guard is fading away.
We all as registries need to focus on where we want to go and how we want to get there.
This issue has taken a sought after horse, with a wide open future as a breed, down the road to where we are now.
Are we viable as organizations the way we are today? Is the future of the Kiger breed viable with out solid backing and financing from a registry willing to promote and compete with the established breeds?
I think the answer to both those questions is a resounding NO .
Can the registries come together and work for the breed ? With these financial times I don’t think we have much choice if we want the Kigers to survive and be anything but a novelty.
We can say ban all found horses but that won’t fix the problem and just open up a legal can of worms.
As an organization we can exclude all found x found horses from being registered there by blending them in and diluting them out and maybe adding something better to the gene pool.
We also need to recognize that because a horse comes off of Kiger/Riddle HMA there still needs to be strict standards applied before they are recognized as the Kiger we want to promote.
Please consider these comments as positive before you threaten to (blacken my eye) because that is the way I mean them.
George
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Post by barbhorses on Jan 18, 2009 23:01:21 GMT -5
ummmm Jillian, the Sulphurs HAVE old Spanish blood in them! mtDNA is icing on the cake! Not solid proof of Spanish heritage. The Sulphurs place in the Iberian breed group based on Spanish markers. They closely relate to the Puerto Rican Paso Fino and the Chilean Criollo. Both breeds praised for their historical "purity".
I could say the same thing for you Jillian. Trying to say that horses who are not related or that are part of another group of horses that somehow come to be the same breed just because the government decided to place them all under one HMA without any knowledge as to what those horses are? Yea, I don't think so. Very convenient for you to say that. Like I said, the Sulphur HMA is NOT like the Kiger or Riddle HMA. Meaning, the BLM didn't hand pick dun factored horses to be placed on a set HMA. The government later found out they had a special group of horses and was proven in 1997. The Sulphur HMA was set up in 1977. hmmmm BLM not knowing what they have and just because all of those horses are under the Sulphur HMA somehow makes them the same breed? I don't think so. Sorry Jillian, but conformation and genetics disagree with you.
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Post by canadiankigers on Jan 18, 2009 23:18:29 GMT -5
Night Rider: I am not sure if you are aware of the Canadian Kiger Mustang Registry ( www.canadiankiger.com) but we have paired up with Wild Horse Run Productions. Last year (2008) they bought a piece of property that they have been working on to develop it as an event center where the first annual All Breed Horse Challenge will be held this fall. It is designed to present to and showcase the Kiger breed to the Canadian public. If you would like more information on it, please feel free to check it out at: www.wildhorserun.com/all_breed_horse_challenge.htm |
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Post by lindad on Jan 18, 2009 23:48:45 GMT -5
Thanks Kelly, but there is absolutely no need for apologies. I am not always clear at explaining myself and this is confusing stuff. I misread things and when it doesn't fit I go back to see if what I thought I read was correct. Had to reread something today. I sure appreciate your kindness! Hope I didn't sound snippy when I suggested a reread! I'm sorry too, it wasn't my intent.
Linda D
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Post by canadiankigers on Jan 18, 2009 23:54:27 GMT -5
Not at all Linda, no offense taken!!!! Everyone here is so polite and understanding. It is a great relief from the "other" Kiger board.
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Post by sbutter on Jan 19, 2009 0:01:30 GMT -5
So how many "found" (I use that word loosely) or found offspring are in the two kiger herds? I am thinking ahead and trying to get an idea of what may happen and all the possibilities with registering the kigers that are directly out of the wild. If something were to happen (very long shot) and for some reason or other enough people decided that any "found" horse/found horse cross should be registered as partbred, how would the "found" horses in the wild be registered? Is there any record somewhere that is open to the public that shows exactly what kigers in the wild are from where and would it be easy to obtain during adoption time? I would hate to be a fairly well educated adopter and find out that for some reason the kiger that I adopted (that I was going to start my purebred breeding operation out of) was actually part blood. Is this a reality? What would be the best thing to do?
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Post by nightrider on Jan 19, 2009 0:14:37 GMT -5
sbutter
If that question was directed at me I will clarify myself. I didn't mean there are found horses on the Kiger/Riddle HMA, just that there are horses out there that won't pass some breed standards and that perhaps we shouldn't be using the range location alone as criteria to be registered and promoted as Kigers.
Hope that helps
George
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Post by sbutter on Jan 19, 2009 0:28:18 GMT -5
Thank you George, that was not directed at you. That was me trying to figure out what is in this whole thread and what is happening with the wild kigers. That did remind me though, should registries (I don't know if they already do) reinforce/put higher standards on kigers from the wild and whether they should be registered as foundation or not?
So, far I am very happy with this thread and all the good information and great thoughts that have been put out there. Hopefully, something good will come out of this for the kigers. At least this is a good thread for anyone who doesn't know anything about kigers and wants to look further into them.
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Post by nightrider on Jan 19, 2009 0:30:17 GMT -5
HI Yes I am aware of your Registry and thanks for the link, I will check it out. George Night Rider: I am not sure if you are aware of the Canadian Kiger Mustang Registry ( www.canadiankiger.com) but we have paired up with Wild Horse Run Productions. Last year (2008) they bought a piece of property that they have been working on to develop it as an event center where the first annual All Breed Horse Challenge will be held this fall. It is designed to present to and showcase the Kiger breed to the Canadian public. If you would like more information on it, please feel free to check it out at: www.wildhorserun.com/all_breed_horse_challenge.htm |
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Post by nightrider on Jan 19, 2009 0:45:50 GMT -5
Tell you the truth I don't even know how many registries there is out there. Yes some registries require inspection/ DNA tersting before a horse off the Kiger/Riddle hma will accepted. Some do not, my belief is that there should be a standard of acceptance . George Thank you George, that was not directed at you. That was me trying to figure out what is in this whole thread and what is happening with the wild kigers. That did remind me though, should registries (I don't know if they already do) reinforce/put higher standards on kigers from the wild and whether they should be registered as foundation or not? So, far I am very happy with this thread and all the good information and great thoughts that have been put out there. Hopefully, something good will come out of this for the kigers. At least this is a good thread for anyone who doesn't know anything about kigers and wants to look further into them. |
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