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Post by Michelle Clarke on May 16, 2012 21:19:47 GMT -5
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Post by Michelle Clarke on May 16, 2012 22:38:56 GMT -5
It is very easy to see things in other people and very hard with ourselves. Everyone needs a coach, no matter what level you are to help us fix stuff up. I understand the desire to be a big softy with your horse but you are not doing her any favors. If you disappeared tomorrow, she would have a better chance at a good life - being useful to people and having manners and being pleasant and safe to be around. Those are things that every horse owner is responsible for with the horses they own. Every horse deserves good, solid training to make them a useful citizen.
I see gals all the time that would not let their husbands, their kids or their dogs push them around, but they let their horses. On the other hand, I see plenty of gals that let everyone in their life push them around until they get some confidence and balance with their horse and then their life changes. Horse respect balanced leadership much more than bags of carrots and kisses. Your horse needs to earn your affection and please believe me - they will love you more on the other side of setting boundries, having higher expectations and fair eadership. I met my husband because of the first colt I raised and spoiled rotten - I mean rotten. To this day, Eric still says my colt was the worse he had ever seen. When he turned three - everyone else could ride him but me. He would bolt and buck with me but no one else - just being a brat and mad because I tried to change our relationship. So, I know where I am coming from here.
Okay, the video. First, we talked about the Chilli segment. Notice when she is walking across the arena, the knot under the halter touches her chin and she speeds up to take the pressure off...very good indeed! Chilli corrected herself there.
The first time Callie takes Payton away and toward the camera, she leads her like many folks do - under the chin. The biggest problem with this is you are teaching the horse to come into you as there is constant pressure towards you. The next problem is the horse will learn to travel crooked - shoulder dropped into you and hip thrown to the outside. The leg pairs on the same side do not track straight. Also notice Callie is not walking straight! What a surprise if the horse spooks that they tend to come on top of the handler...
The next time out and back, Callie gives Payton some more rope and we see how much Payton does not pay attention at all and is all over the place. Callie has to drag her a lot as she does not even keep up. Imagine yourself up on her doing the same walk - you would have the same result. No mind of the rider or the job at hand.
So first off, we address Payton lagging behind. The handler needs to keep walking and keep the same pressure on the line; turn and send the horse past you. Make it harder on her and double her speed. Naturally, she'll speed up and cross in front of you - push her past you, change directions, send her back to where she came from and change her back to walking in the right direction. As soon as she gets back to where she needs to be (at the handlers shoulder) leave her alone; even if it is for only a second and you have to repeat it all over again.
Okay, so you are walking, lead in your hand closest to the horse. Horse lags and you feel pressure on the rope; switch hands as you turn toward the horse, keeping the same amount of pressure the horse has already created - lead horse out past you and most likely, you will need to get the end of your rope involved to push the horse on. Again, if you have to run into the horse with your rope, do it; get the message across that you mean business. Horse like things black and white - they like to understand exactly what you mean and not be nagged or begged to do something.
The horse goes forward, crosses in front of you - change hands while you keep walking forward and swing out in front of the horses nose to encourage her to change directions back. Then change hands again as she passes back in front of you to switch her back to the original direction - leave her alone when she gets in position.
The second time, Callie sent her and she picked up speed but did not cross in front - so Callie was able to just switch hands and swing in front of her nose to get her back in position. You want to have two or three ways to get the same thing done because if you use the same tactic for each evasion - sooner or later, they will figure out how to evade that!
I know this looks like Callie is whoopen' up on this horse but watch how Callie leaves her alone when she does what is asked and has soft but firm hands. The only time she reaches out to touch her with the rope is when Payton is slowing her feet down further away from Callie and she is not listening to the "lead out" aide on the rope. Notice right at the four minute mark, Callie asks lightly and gets a great response - this is what you are looking for.
Another thing to note is that Payton is the kind of horse that has no problem kicking you or taking you out. It is important when she starts to argue to keep her feet moving and changing directions quickly to get her mind refocused. At 4:20, Payton looks toward her pen and her buddy - you just know she is about to throw down. At about 4:44, she comes into Callies' space and Callie has to duck to keep from getting her head run into.
Payton is now getting mad at being asked to repeat this exercise. The tail is starting to go and the ears flick back some but she straightens out and even stops well - matching Callies energy and giving some nice space. Callie is allowing her to look around as long as her feet are still - if she were to move, back to work she'd go.
The next stop, Callie backs her up because she stopped a little too ahead of her. I like a horse that is young, untrained or ill mannered to stay more behind me so if they spook, I don't get run over. I like their nose at my shoulder instead of their neck or even their shoulder at mine as I would with a more trained horse that has more respect for my space.
Right away, Callie asks for another stop - keeping the subject in front of her and getting an improvement. We had to stop to let a truck go by and Payton gets mad because she figured she was done after a two minute break...hence her trying to run Callie over. Payton is about to throw down and Callie has to be careful but still be firm and ready to up the anti if she needs to. Just look at the expression on Paytons' face change about minute seven. She is sizing Callie up. Watch at 7:11 - when Payton turns she is thinking bad things - she is bowing up and if Callie gave her a long rope right there, she would most likely get kicked at this point. Callie sees it and changes directions quickly to keep Payton on her backend so she can't kick out.
When they stop, Callie does not pet her because Payton stops with tension and she is only stopping physically but not mentally - you can see the tense muscles and the head position - she still has a slight bow in her neck with is all attitude. She does not need to be pet at this point.
At 7:40, Payton makes a break for her pen...now she is really popped. Callie begins leading her foward with her inside hand and using her outside hand with the rope end out behind her to drive the horse forward. She is letting Payton know she has other ways of getting the job done plus not letting her cross in front at this point with a chance of getting kicked. Callie is trying to diffuse the situation without changing the task at hand.
At 9:15, Payton quits. She is done with this game and is making it quite clear by not moving her feet in any direction she is asked. The best thing to do at this point is get the energy up. You can see she is basically a lazy horse, so doubling her energy will get her to settle down and behave quicker than anything.
I think it is funny at about minute 10, that Callie asks Payton nicely because she felt the horse was beginning to try and Payton takes that as a weakness and starts to argue again! Callie works on getting her energy back up - which really ticks Payton off once again and she really lets it show. Very important here not to get sucked into an argument - stay cool, stay on task and be happy because it always get worse before it gets better - and Payton is about to try again after this little tantrum!
Important that when you push the horse to move, you open your hands and give them rope. Right now, at the beginning of training, you want them to not run into pressure after they've done what you've asked.
******One of the important concepts here is to let the horse explore what does not work...if you don't they will always figure it may be an option at some point. Let them find out you have an answer for every evasion. ******
I did not realize Payton would be so sore on the driveway and I feel bad but she could have made it much easier on herself by behaving a lot sooner, so could not have been that much work!
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Post by gotkiger on May 18, 2012 12:44:06 GMT -5
Bad news. I was working Dollie trying to change directions while walking and she wasnt too happy that I was actually making her work. Sadly she just got away with the worst thing she could have. For the first time since I have delt with her Dollie Kicked me, and connected. Luckilly I was able to dodge most of it and blocked my face and head with my arms but she still knocked me down and my hat off, and to make matters worse I was not feeling well (off balance and dizzy) this morning and I just about passed out when I tried to get after her after she kicked me. But I was able to hold onto the rope and get her turned when she tried to turn and bolt the other way. and get her out of my space. So she is now tied to the fence and will be for the next few hours.
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Post by gotkiger on May 18, 2012 12:44:56 GMT -5
Sorry when I say connected she connected with my arm and hand not my head or face.
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Post by Michelle Clarke on May 18, 2012 14:45:05 GMT -5
First off...glad you're okay. Man. This is a very basic exercise and it just shows us how much there is to do with Dollie before you are safe riding her. When you have a horse that argues at wanting to trot on line for you, like your last video. I am guessing canter work under saddle is probably dangerous.
Many people get away with no "problems" with their horse (sometimes for years) because they never expect much of their horse or confront them on issues. Very common to hear a laundry list of things that a horse won't do....ride away from a group - no thanks. Canter on trail?? Heck no. Get into the trailer....well, Fluffy does not like trailers. Go into her stall at feeding - why NEVER!!! It would not be a problem if it ended there, but it does not. Once a horse starts setting boundaries with you - they grow and fester until that horse owns you.
So....we are going to have to straighten her out another way. I sure did not think after being at a trainers, she would have no work ethic and such an attitude about moving her feet in basic tasks and I sure did not think the first thing you asked of her would get a kick at you. Brat.
Do you have a roundpen or small, safe area where you could work her loose? If not, let me know and we will work her on a long line and get some things done. I just need to know what to film for you next.
She is putting her foot down right away on this new program!! Don't get discouraged - every horse goes through crap like this and we need to just get past it but we need to do it safely.
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Post by gotkiger on May 18, 2012 15:36:13 GMT -5
I don't have a round pen yet but hopefully will at the beginning of October. I have a smaller pen u want to say it is about 40 feet in diameter but about 100 feet long. I will go get a few panels to cut it in half and make it into an area to work. I have to ask first but maybe I can get that. If not Frodo leaves in two weeks for a month or so so I will be able to use his pen and I can easily get a roundish pen set up in that.
Dollie does this ad thus truly has me trained. She will work for someone else but wen it comes to me she will give attitude and not do it. I have a friend who has seen thi and she says Dollie has zero respect for me and that with this incident she was trying to correct me. I agree. Dollie has no respect for me. She thinks I am there to feed her and nothing else. She needs a few good lessons that she isn't head bimbo any more and I need to learn how to be the head. I am more annoyed than anything. Not discouraged at all. If anything she made me want to go out and do it more just to piss her off. In face I will be out again tonight to do the same thing. Oh another thing I forgot to mention earlier. When Dollie doesn't want to do something she uses that big neck of hers and pulls the rope out of my hands and runs away. She did this while we were working ou in the pasture so I moved to an enclosed alley about 15 feet wide. Which I am sure was part of the problem. Otherwise she will just pull and run ad keep running and I won't be able to catch her hen she is like that. This is also why she didn't get grain for a long time. Every time she sees me when I feed her grain she expects me to brig her more. If I don't she gets pissy at me. I am really considering taking her off the grain completely.
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Post by Michelle Clarke on May 18, 2012 16:06:29 GMT -5
If Dollie feels like she can pull the rope out of your hands at any time then we really need to get some work done with her being loose so we can build some respect without that physical connection that she has control over. She can also "express" herself at a safe distance and have her little tantrums by herself. Remember when you said you were a big softy when it comes to her and could not keep your hands off her? This kind of thing is what happens when they get all the love and feed without respect first. They need to earn it. We have a seven stall barn I call the "Training Barn". This is where horses who come in for training go (duh!). Four of the stalls have runs. The first and one of the biggest parts of training is that they need to learn to get out of the stall while the feed is being put in. They can't even come in until the door is shut and the person has walked away. You can imagine what that looks like for the first week! Most horses think they need to maul you when you have feed and when you start pushing them away, they get mad. You can always tell a new horse is in the barn because they have a stick with a flag on it in front of their stall. At feeding time there is a lot of banging and running about with head shaking going on as they fly out of the stall and throw a fit! Occasionally, a bucket will fly out the stall after them (that's called "bucket training" by the way...  ) You can't imagine how some of them react and some for weeks at a time! The same goes out in my pastures...everyone must go out a distance and stand while the feed is put out. We don't even let the horses argue among themselves. If one horse argues with another, they all get in trouble until they all eat quietly and mind their own business. First and foremost - get a stick and tie a plastic bag on it (open the closed end so it goes through the air better. Take that with you while you feed Dollie and make her stand back at a good distance while you put the feed down. Don't wait until three feet away to push her - do it at 10 or 15 so you are at a safe distance. Also, stand by her food until she stands quietly and respectfully at a good distance (at least 10' for now). If you turn and walk away and she rushes in or comes in with her ears back - push her butt right back out and wait til she calms down again. We need to change how she is handled at every step so it is all consistent. This is her new life starting today. Proud of you Sara. I am glad you are mad at her and see her for her true colors right now. She'll make some good changes over the next few months, trust me. Horses want a balanced leader and once you learn how to become one, she'll be happy in her "herd of two" with you... |
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Post by DianneC on May 18, 2012 16:08:08 GMT -5
Wow, this will be great to learn from, so glad you weren't badly hurt! And I was about to say "glad Kigers are better than the horse in the video" LOL.
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Post by Michelle Clarke on May 18, 2012 16:11:18 GMT -5
Dianne...the difference is - Dollie will learn her place quickly and Payton will always be a crabby wench that will wait for your guard to be down so she can take advantage of you!
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Post by gotkiger on May 18, 2012 16:24:11 GMT -5
Dollie is terrible when it comes to food, especially her grain. I have stood there for 30 min before keeping her away from me and the bucket when she threw her head into it and knocked it out of my hands, and that was just barely getting her to ignore me as soon as i was out of the pasture she came in like a bat out of #$!!. She didn't get her breakfast this morning because I was pissed and not feeling well. So we will have a come to Jesus meeting tonight over her grain. I don't feed her flake hay while she is in the pasture (my husband and father-in-law think it is a waste and i am tired of that fight, they aren't horse people), but I do have a pen on the side that is fairly dry and barren... she will be going back into that at night.
* kind of a side bar- Frodo is still learning but is way more accepting of having to stay out of his little stall while I get the food ready. He isn't allowed in while I am in there. If he is in there when I get there he has to come out until I am done. Once I am finished I come out give him a pet and walk away, then he goes in. He sometimes gets a little anxious and wants to get in quicker but he doesn't give the attitude like his mama.
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Post by gotkiger on May 18, 2012 16:31:49 GMT -5
question... When it comes to disciplining Dollie and getting her away, what is acceptable and what is not? i have no quams about taking my rope or whatever is in my hand and swinging it and letting it land wherever it does in a tight situation. I have delt with another horse that would just come in rump first and tucking it under like they were preparing to fire out (i wanted a hot shot with that jerk). He would pin you against the bars and lean with all his weight. He was fixed with a quick kick to the butt with my toe an then me pushing off the bars with my foot on him... it took a couple of times but he didn't test me after that
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Post by Michelle Clarke on May 18, 2012 17:28:42 GMT -5
You need to do what is fair and it is fair for her to get physical contact when she is coming into your space - that is what another horse would do if she came barreling in and tried to take their feed. That is why I want you to use a stick and a flag - so you can push her further out without you having to have a lot of effort and you can stay calm but get the job done. Start out by shaking it, waving it, hitting the ground and if she comes close enough to run into it - then so be it - she has a choice and there is a consequence for her decisions....maybe she'll start making better ones.
If you feel she is not making changes or upping the anti where you feel in danger - walk out and put the bucket outside her pen or stall and leave it there. Try again later and take it back out if you have to. This is a perfect opportunity to work on her attitude because you have something she wants and she is going to have to behave and go through you to get it. Make that clear.
So, do as little as it takes to get the job done but as much as necessary. Up the energy when she does and back it down right away if she does. Be ready to get it back up when needed. Don't just keep her away from it - make her run! Keep sending her out away from you, hard, until she can come in and act like a lady.
To really throw her for a loop - you should only give her a handful every time and feed her like every 30-60 minutes - whatever your schedule allows. This will give you a chance to get it done multiple times a day
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Post by gotkiger on May 18, 2012 17:41:18 GMT -5
Thank you for all of this. I will let you know how it goes tonight.
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Post by gotkiger on May 18, 2012 19:33:26 GMT -5
I guess it is good to know that your horse knows when they did something very bad. I tried to do the grain and bucket thing and it worked great. I gave her her grain an hour ago and she still hasn't come out of her corner, lol
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Post by Michelle Clarke on May 18, 2012 20:45:03 GMT -5
Bet she's asking herself a lot of questions right now....glad it worked out. The start of a new beginning.
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) You can't imagine how some of them react and some for weeks at a time!
