Wild vs Captive Bred

[kigerfan]

As we know, we have limited control of how the Kigers breed in the wild. We can keep turning back the ones that we believe are the best representations of the breed, but we have no real control over which stallion breeds which mares. At some point as evolution goes along, I believe that domestic Kigers have a possibility of differing greatly in conformation from wild Kigers. How do we keep the quality up in the wild Kigers and our ideals true to the original Kiger types in our domestically bred Kigers?

This is something no other breed type has to deal with. Look at the Arabian horse, if you compare the current day Arabian to the Darley Arabian, Godolphin Arabian, and Byerly Turk, they are very different. There are no wild Arabians to compare against or use to infuse old lines. so the breed will continue to evolve to suit the breeder's ideals.

We are creating the history of this breed. What will it be in a hundred years? What will happen with the wild roaming herds? What will happen if the wild vs domestic become different horses? This breed's history and legacy are in our hands as with no other breed, what will we do with that?

[Michelle Clarke]

Kigerfan, we are on the same page....I brought over this post I put up this morning on another thread, as I thought it would be more appropriate with the thread you started.

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I would guess the confusion begins with the begining of the Kigers. Do we have good enough pictures and information on the "original"? How can we know that the standard was set true to type?
Then you have two other aspects: they are wild and we have no control over in how they reproduce themselves. So if we want the orginal type, aside from trying to control which horses go back out, how can we assure that from the herds? How can we assure no crossovers or loose ranch horses or this tough inferior stallion breeding good mares - we can't.
The "type" is an ever evolving situation, not a set standard that the wild ones follow. We cannot get them to conform to our wants. That is problem number one.
Number two: people have different opinions and views in what they want in a horse. I belive each breeder has their own goal that they breed for. Some don't like a large muzzle, so they don't breed large muzzled horses that may have 5 other desirable traits and breed the small muzzled horse that may not be the best breeding quality. Big butt, small butt; heavy horse, lean horse; one type vs. another. It is inevitable.
There is always a group that wants to preserve what is seen as the "original". Then some want a more versatile animal; a show animal; a stock animal and the list goes on. I don't necessarily think this is a bad thing. Each breed deals with it and there is really no way to stop it. As we are already familiar with, if you don't like it, go out and start your own group or registry!
The big question is, how to handle it? Back to the registry.....well, they will need to accomodate. A registry has a very hard job of trying to make all the members happy and that is near impossible and I don't envy that job at all!
I belive that even in a set Breed Standard, there is (or should be) room for variation and that should be embraced by all members in a breed and not looked down upon.

[spanishsagegrullas]

To all the readers of this board,

Very frequently I read posts on this board, and have a lot of new information I want to offer, however, I have tons of other things that take my time, not to mention my horses which do.

So in response here please forgive the cursory list of considerations, but I think they are important to keep in mind.

Of equal importance is that the fact that we are breeding MUSTANGS, and there are currently over 30,000 unadopted ones costing the BLM millions, and giving those who are not in favor of mustangs on federal lands lots of ammunition to ask for the entire program to be terminated, not just the horses.

Are you trying to create a horse that you could find in some holding facility that is waiting to be adopted?

Why are Kigers as mustangs special? Because they did have a primitive/ spanish mustang look to them, different from other areas in the country that have wild horses. They were, and still are, considered to be a herd that has a lesser amount of dilution from the domestic escapees that effect other herds. They have a large component of the genes that the wild horses first brought over by the Conquistadors carried, including the Sorraia genes, which are now bottlenecked. It may be that Kigers carry the fuller compenent of genes that the Sorraia carried back then, which have been lost to the horses in Portugal. In addition, it is possible that these horses arrived in the Pacific Northwest before the Vaqueros. This is born out by the possession of horses by local Indian tribes, as seen by Lewis & Clark, the Hudson Bay Company, and others.

Kigers were started as a HMA that PRESERVES these types and these genes.

What is accomplished by trying to move away from these types, other than lose this living archeological site, and produce a horse that can probably be found in great numbers in the already existing wild herds, and who suffer greatly by being disregarded.

Just food for thought.

Diane P.

[nrly]

I posted something almost the same on another site about the white marking on the horses, this gene is going to be in them forever cause of the breeding in the wild and I do not feel it should deter from them, they should not be knocked off a point here or a point there it really is something that we can not control, due io inbreeding in the wild. All our Kigers whether wild or captive at some point their ancestry goes back to the wild.
nola

[kigerfan]

This is true, though from what I've read about the piebald, it's probably a good idea to breed away from excessive white. If we are looking for the more primitive coloring, then white becomes a grading factor, just as barring and cobwebbing should be a grading factor. Body conformation should be a huge grading factor and coloring less so.

[nrly]

well if you want a pure Kiger I do not think you can get away from getting white at some point, so it needs to be stopped at a deterrent and just let it be. do make it a deduction if a horse has white. my Stormy has a tri colored mane and tail is she to be penilized because that gene is there to throw off some white I think not.
nola

[kigerfan]

It is my understanding that that would not be penalized, though I'm sure it depends on the registry. My personal opinion is that color/markings should not hold a huge percentage of the overall rating, but then I don't own or run any registry so that is just my personal opinion I guess the questions are do white markings equal less primitive and how important is primitive. We have a mustang at the ranch that looks quite Kiger with barring on his legs and cobwebbing on his face. He is gelded so I never bothered to find out what his freeze brand was but was told he was not from the Kiger ranges. What distinctly makes a Kiger a Kiger and stands it out from any other breed? I think the Kiger build and personality is a big part of it, at least in Firefly's case. I've never owned a horse with a personality like hers.

As to the comment of we are breeding mustangs.. this is my take..

From early childhood, I have always loved the looks, movement, personalities of the Andalusian and later the Lusitano. I always wanted one but being a small person who has already owned an 18 hand thoroughbred, I wanted a horse that fit my size and my personaltiy. In my endless wanderings of the internet I ran across a video of a Kiger in motion. My heart just thumped. The topline was so stable in motion and being that I have a bad back, that's very desirable. The horse had great charisma and presence. The horse was very gentle and personable for a stud and really drew my interest. I started really researching the Kiger Mustang and became more and more enamoured with them. I asked a lot of questions and looked at a lot of sites. I ran across a picture of Firefly as a foal. I felt an immediate connection to her even just with the picture. Her motion was wonderful and her eye was very intelligent. Even just in the picture she had something about her. The first time I saw her she was already mine. I saw her with a heavy winter coat and out in a field with many other horses. She was not interested in me at all and actually showed more interest in my husband. She bared her teeth at me and pinned her ears back. I was asked if I wanted to back out and I said no, there's something about her, I think she's special. I have never regretted that purchase and I was right, there is definitely something about her. She is extremely intelligent, very curious and very willing. Her conformation is great, she carries a rider well and moves smoothly and effortlessly. She is blessed with her sire's gate and beautiful face and her dam's hip. I don't look at it as breeding mustangs, but Kigers. As long as we work to continue the lines with the correct body conformation, sound minds and primitive markings, we will have something special, not just another horse that could be waiting for adoption in any HMA lot. I especially think that is true since the BLM isn't looking to further the breed as much as manage the range and make as much money as possible doing so.

[desperatehorsewife]

Personally, I don't support the breeding of mustangs in captivity unless they've shown themselves to be outstanding individuals. I don't mean outstanding as it, "Oh, my horse is breathtaking!", but more along the lines of what has he/she accomplished?

We can all go out and adopt a good trail horse, time after time, so a good mind is not enough. I think a horse has got to be able to hold it's own competitively out there in the world, and the foal you're looking to produce should be carefully considered for the job you want it to hold before you breed your mare.

But if it's just a good, sound horse, with a willing mind and very pretty...go adopt another one, because there are thousands just like it.

[kigerfan]

While I don't agree with breeding mutt horse to mutt horse, I do believe in a responsible program breeding the Kiger Mustangs. They're an up and coming breed and I believe there is merit in continuing the line. I do not believe in just having a huge pasture that would equate to a 'puppy farm' and producing poor quality horses simply for profit. I don't think there are many people involved in Kigers that are breeding simply for profit with no regard to the damage they are doing to the breed as a whole.

[desperatehorsewife]

I guess I disagree, because I think a lot of people are breeding for profit, just not admitting it (even to themselves.)

There are thousands of people who have 'foal mills', if you will, thinking that just because they've got registration papers, their horse is worthy of reproducing. I think the same mentality runs strong in humans no matter what type of horse (or animal) they've got, and I've seen it over and over again. I don't think you can say that mustang owners are any different or more responsible than the general population.

I'm not opposed to breeding, just believe you really need to have a valid reason to do and carefully evaluate whether or not your horse is truly an excellent representative of the breed.

I've been reading the breed standard information and find it very vague; but perhaps I've just not looked in the right place yet. I personally prefer more of a set back shoulder on a horse than the kigers have. Most of the horses at the adoption had straight shoulders. Admittedly, I'm not a big Kiger person; is this what is considered a strong asset? Is it what you'll find in the old Spanish horses?

If straight, upright shoulders are not what you're looking for, then I can't say that many of the horses adopted recently will be breeding material, because why would you want to pass it on?

Anyway, it's just food for thought. I'm a fan of a good, solid breeding program with true purpose and goals. Too many people are just trying to populate the earth with their Kigers and half breeds, which doesn't do anyone any good. If your Kiger can't produce a good working offspring, then there's no reason, IMO, to reproduce it, because nature produces a lot of good horses without our help.

[Michelle Clarke]

You have some valid points, but I have to disagree with you on horses having to compete to be breeding worthy. Many folks who do the breeding are NOT trainers, nor have the inclination or $$ to drop into every horse to compete. Many do not have access to GOOD trainers. Only 10% of the people involved with horses show, so gosh, what a limited market.

Show horses are mostly bred specifically for showing. Many times this does not make for a good amateur owner animal - we deal with this situation all the time. "hey, my national champion arab halter horse is washed up, so lets make him a trail horse". Not the easiest job to do and the horses suffer when they are bred for one job.

The Kigers don't have that issue because they are naturally a versatile animal. Many Kiger folks ride for pleasure and they don't need a hotter bred animal that makes a good show horse.

There are countless reasons to have breeding programs in place due to the simple fact that we can't rely on one entity to keep the Kigers thriving. Nor can we hope that the best horses will bred the best mares. Just not feasable and something no one has any control over.

Ideally, I belive stallions should be proven in one way or another, but what does that mean? Charro was never shown, yet he spent years doing exhibitions nation wide. Some people tell us they have a big "show horse" coming in for training, and come to find out she won a western pleasure class at the 4H show. What does that say? Now that mare is proven? I don't belive so.

Other countries don't ride thier mares. Maybe they show in a morphology class as a 2-3 yr. old, but they are proven in the foaling shed. Big breeders don't have time to compaign a couple dozen mares while they are also trying to promote their numberous stallions.

It all gets back to education and breeders learning what is usable and worth breeding.

On the other hand, many good trainers have thier own breeding programs, so that tells you that many breeders are not breeding worthy animals!

[desperatehorsewife]

I guess that's what gets me about most breeders of mustangs. There are several nice horses out there waiting to be adopted, and I don't see the reason for adding 'nice' to the gene pool.

I think Kigers face a real issue of being overbred and dropping value with breeders who, as you say, have their own breeding program.

Until the Kiger Associations can get on the same page, until there is an actual breed description...they're just a pretty horse running wild that's being captured. Without a description, people will continue to breed just for breeding sake.

There were more than enough mares and stallions that went for $125 at the adoption event; that's a good enough price to start your program. Honestly, my brown mare is better looking than a lot of the colored horses that went for more, she's just not as striking because she lacks color. Still, the only way I'd ever consider breeding her is if she showed a true talent towards some discipline, because as I said, I can go get another one for $125 with a good mind and trainability

Of course, just my opinion.

[kigerfan]

I see a lot of deep passion in Kiger people. I think some might be out there to just make a buck but with the passion I see from the 'breeders' I know, they aren't just out there for the buck. The other indication that there is a strong passion here is actually how much disagreement happens with the registries. If they didn't care they wouldn't argue so much. They would just say oh, that's what's acceptable, okay I'll make little carbon copies. I think the captive bred Kigers are much better in conformation than most of the adoptees (that seems a general consensus). This tells me that the breeders obviously are doing something right and they are being beneficial to the breed, not detrimental. There are thousands of horses out on the market of every breed imaginable that could be good competition horse material, so using that logic, why would you ever breed any of your horses for anything, just go out and find a horse that can be competitive. There is obviously something that drew us to the Kiger and something that captivates us, I don't see anything irresponsible in wanting to further that breed, whether you intend to show it in any capacity or not. I don't show horses. My horse is my companion and a living being that shares time and adventures with me. She is no less a horse than any show horse that spends it's time on a halter in a show ring, nor one that reins or chases cows. No non abusive way of interacting with your horse is any more valid than the other. I don't care if Firefly never got in an arena with a cow, nor had a rope twirled above her head nor pranced on the end of a leadrope in a ring. Conformation wise, I truly believe her to be a very good representation of her breed, she is sound of mind and body and she is a good ambassador for her breed. I believe that the breeding of her to Bravo will give me a high quality foal posessing the qualities of Sire and Dam. As far as overbreeding, I think pretty much every up and coming breed goes through that. Kigers are basically a ground floor breed right now and I'm glad that everyone I've talked to is taking such a strong passionate position about them. If they didn't, this could be a turning point for them in the wrong direction, but quite honestly, I really believe in most of the people involved and I think when everything comes out in the wash, the Kiger breed will be the better for it. Another distinguishing thing is that this is not just another mustang of the thousands running on multiple HMAs, This is a particular classification of mustang that is coming into it's own as a 'Kiger' more than a 'mustang', so just going to any HMA round up and picking a likely looking horse isn't the same. I unfortunately believe that the breeders are going to be the saviour of this breed to it's original standards because unless the BLM gets someone in that has a passion for this breed, it will continue to deteriorate due to 'cost effective' selection processes. Okay, I'm going to get off my pedestal now and get ready to go see my girl., I'll try to remember to bring my camera so you can see pictures of the teddybear girl.

[desperatehorsewife]

Another distinguishing thing is that this is not just another mustang of the thousands running on multiple HMAs, This is a particular classification of mustang that is coming into it's own as a 'Kiger'

Okay, but what is that classification? Because so far, I've not read anything that creates a cohesive, uniform breed.

more than a 'mustang', so just going to any HMA round up and picking a likely looking horse isn't the same.

Why not, if you're only going after a nice horse?

My horse is my companion and a living being that shares time and adventures with me. She is no less a horse than any show horse that spends it's time on a halter in a show ring, nor one that reins or chases cows.

Not saying she is. Just saying you can capture her in the wild. Over and over again. You've formed a close bond with your horses, but so has everyone else, regardless of where their horse came from. What makes her stand out head and tails above the other wild caught horses? Why is she of better breeding material? That's what I'm wondering.

I'm not trying to stir up trouble or make anyone angry, I just have a very conservative view point. Everyone loves their horses and thinks the world of them, but not every one of them deserves to be bred just because we love them or they have a good personality. Way too many horses out there starving to death, being abused and neglected. If you've not got a plan for your horse other than it's going to be a nice horse, I don't comprehend the reason for breeding...

[kigerfan]

I believe there is a basic classification that all of the boards seem to agree upon. I think 'found blood' and color are the two main sticking points. I believe KHAR has a breed description on their site. Firefly also traces back to Steen's Kiger through Kiger Sundance. Kiger Sundance is an accomplished stallion in his own right. My answer to the 'any old mustang is, I don't want any old mustang, I want a Kiger. They are a full package that lights my passion for horses and excites my imagination. I've been around a LOT of mustangs and have not had that experience with them. As far as her being a good representation of the breed, worthy of reproducing. I will post pictures of mesteno and of firefly, I couldn't put her up against any tougher competition because he IS the Kiger Mustang.





I will breed her because I believe she will throw a foal that will have her quality and the quality of the chose Sire. Breeding her gives me a choice of what quality my horse will be made of. Compare her conformation and looks to Mesteno. I know you can't see into her head so I will tell you she is brilliant and curious and very sweet. I have had other horses that were fully capable of breeding and I never bred them because though they were good horses and in one case an awesome horse, they had conformation faults that I would not pass on to offspring.