Registry Comparison

[Michelle Clarke]

Here is a pict of Madonna five weeks before she died, she was 11 yrs. old. I don't remember ever sending you picts before, but I could be wrong. She still had quite a bit of color.



She is in the BLM catalog as a light dun. I have her papers from SMKR as a Claybank. It does not say if she was DNA'd. I belive she is also registered with the KMA, but I don't have those papers.

I guess I am still confused about Desi...is the concern where the grey came from, meaning genetics, or just the color?

Did I miss somewhere as to where the grey is belived to come from? What about bay?

[kigerfan]

She's a pretty girl with a gentle face, I hope I'm not stepping out of line asking what happened that she passed away so young

[kigerfan]

An interesting equine genetics site....
www.mustangs4us.com/Horse%20Colors/Genetics1.htm

[kigerfan]

And another great site, Grey is directly addressed on this site.
sheepasylum.cherrytaco.com/equinecolor/main.html

[Michelle Clarke]

No, you are not out of line to ask. She flipped over a fence and a post split her open. The herd must have been running and for whatever reason she did what she did, probably sideways. When I got to her she was still bleeding out and already dead, so it was quick. The herd was still right there breathing hard from running. My vet said it would not have mattered what type of fence we had, at that speed she would have broke her neck or back anyway. All my years in horses and it was the first dead horse I had ever seen. I am sure at some point, everyone goes through it.

When I finally figured out she was grey, I started to breed her to Lusos because color did not matter so much for registration. Then seeing what a great cross she and Charro were, I began to breed her back to Charro and wait for some colored fillies. The foal at her side is the best foal she and Charro ever had. He is going to be built like Rev and tall like Desi. He has thick bone, huge joints and is the straightest moving colt I have ever seen. Too bad he is grey.

I hated to sell him, but with the trauma he went through, he deserves a great home and a human of his own. The gal also bought Vistosa, so he will be with one of his siblings, which is nice.

[nrly]

sorry about you loosing his mama. I just do not get this obsession with no grays, no overly white, If the horse is a kiger then it should be registered as such and not panelized for its color. Like they have a choice. you mix color crayons and you get a different color. instead of calling it a gray why not a lite this or a Smokey that, I again just do not get it. to me the color of mama is a light red dun color and the baby is a smoky silver not gray, and she is so pretty.
nola

[kigerfan]

I'm very sorry for yor loss, it's heart rending. I had a twenty four year old paint that I adored and a four year old paint. I made a deal with a gal at the ranch that she could ride the four year old paint if she agreed to just let the twenty four year old out in the large arena to play. She didn't need riding, she was very arthritic and did best with a little playtime of her own every day. I was running my own company and rarely got done before around ten pm at which time the park where the equestrian center was located was already closed. That's the reason why I had to make the deal. I called the gal two to three times a week to see how the horses were doing, if they needed anything, etc. I had months where I wasn't able to see them at all. Finally One night around ten pm, when I drove by the park, the gate was open and I was able to drive clear back to the equestrian center. When I drove up, the onsite caretake came up and told me that she couldn't believe I was allowing my horses to be treated as they were. After going back and forth with her a few times she finally told me that the girl was giving my twenty four year old mare bute and then allowing her mother to ride her everywhere at a gallop. I was insensed. The next day I took completely off, cancelled all meetings and everything and went to the ranch. My girl was bad off. Her flank was quivering she was in so much pain. I got the vet out at once on an emergency visit. She looked like hell, they weren't even brushing her before saddling her. I felt disgusted and ashamed. The vet tried different medications on her over the next couple of weeks and nothing aleviated her pain. He finally said I had two choices, she lives like this or I put her down. In the process of that choice, the girl came up and asked me if she could take my other paint out. I told her that I have been forced into the decision of putting my girl down and if I ever caught her so much as glancing at my other horse, she'd need an ambulance. So with that, This sweet girl, the girl that rested her head in my arms as she was drugged and had cancer removed from her vulva, this girl that nickered to me whenever she saw me, this girl who was loyal and sweet and deserved nothing but loving care, was put down. I feel your pain and loss. It seems that we all have to go through the death of our beloved horses if we want to have the honour and treasure of them in our lives.

[nrly]

WOW both posts made me cry. am sorry that your girl was mistreated so.
nola

[karismakigers]

admin said:

Here is a pict of Madonna five weeks before she died, she was 11 yrs. old. I don't remember ever sending you picts before, but I could be wrong. She still had quite a bit of color.

She definitely has more color than I remember. Just on this photo, I would have called her claybank. The pictures sent were when there was a huge discussion on claybanks vs. greybanks on the Kiger Board eons ago. There was one photo where she was de-pigmenting on her tail, from the tip upwards. Of course, for the life of me I can't find the photos. I have had a harddrive crash some time back so it might have disappeared with that. I'll have to check my backup files.

admin said:

She is in the BLM catalog as a light dun. I have her papers from SMKR as a Claybank. It does not say if she was DNA'd. I belive she is also registered with the KMA, but I don't have those papers.

Which one is she in the catalog? I don't remember her BLM number, so it is difficult to look up. 2277 is listed as grulla. 2280 is listed as dun filly. None are listed as "light" dun. SMKR has all of the grey horses listed as claybanks. SMKR isn't the best for recording things correctly or properly. There is someone in Prineville just down the road from me that has a bonafide, guaranteed "sorrel dun" stallion registered in SMKR. It has no leg barring, no dorsal, no markings what-so-ever. It is a chestnut/sorrel and looks like any other sorrel QH. Since February of last year, KHAR have received about 23 copies of SMKR papers which has numerous holes in the pedigrees. For example, one "roan" mare has the sire listed as Steens Kigers Silverado, and a "wild" listed as dam....no name, just wild. Then for the dam's sire there is Kiger Don Sombre listed. There is no dam's dam. So, I guess Kiger Don Sombre was brought in nursing an unknown filly. <grin>. Another gelding has Steens Kigers Silvrado (SMKR spelling) as a sire, Steens Kiger as grandsire, no dam listed for Silvrado. Dam of gelding is Mihia who is sired by Wild, but has no dam listed at all, not even wild. On the front of the certificate, the dam is spelled Mihija.

admin said:

I guess I am still confused about Desi...is the concern where the grey came from, meaning genetics, or just the color?

Did I miss somewhere as to where the grey is belived to come from? What about bay?

The issue of grey is simply color related. Grey wasn't managed for. It states clearly, that all non-conforming color will not be managed for and will be removed. That the paramount trait of the Kiger was the dun factor coloration. Two of the Beatty Butte horses were actually grey with dun, and they were both mares (i was wrong about the sexes on my previous post). One went to Riddle, one went to Kiger. They were released in 1977. Once those horses completely grey'd out, Ron spent the last decade trying to weed it out of the herds. But like the grey gene in other breeds, it had become entrenched, difficult to eliminate.

Bay has always been part of the Kiger fabric. None of the "Kiger" horses were known to be homozygous for dun, so a certain % of bay horses were expected.

Grey in the Kiger is like Chestnut in the Friesians. Chestnut occurs, but isn't recognized by the original registry. So, a new registry was started so that Chestnut Friesians can be given registration papers and allowed to breed. When one thinks of Friesians, they don't immediately picture a red horse....they picture a jet black one.

Jillian

[kigerfan]

Wow, I've never seen a chestnut friesian, that would just be wierd. Why would someone want one when the breed color has always been black?
I think the topic of grey will go on for a long time. It's going to depend whether we want to follow the original blm standards or create our own.

[karismakigers]

admin said:

What about bay?

Looking at the records, the following brown/bays/chestnuts/sorrels have been released on Kiger/Riddle/Smyth Creek.

1 brown brindle mare 73009164. Released in Kiger 1977 and again in Kiger 1993.

1 bay colt 93009165. Dam was the brindle mare above. Released in Kiger in 1993 with dam.

1 dark brown stallion 83001496. Released in Smyth Creek in 1983.

5 brown stallions. Released in Smyth Creek in 1978. All were originally from Jackie Butte HMA.

1 bay stallion. Released in Smyth Creek in 1978. From Jackie Butte HMA.

1 chestnut stallion. Released in Smyth Creek in 1978. From Jackie Butte HMA.

2 Sorrel mares. Released in Smyth Creek in 1978. From Palomino Butte HMA.

1 Bay stallion. Released in Smyth Creek in 1977. From South Steens HMA.

1 Brown mare. Released in East Kiger in 1977. From E. Kiger HMA.

As you can see, only the Brown brindle mare and her bay colt and the dark brown stallion (1983) were the only ones released into the Kiger HMAs after the 1979 Memo that Kiger/Riddle/Smyth would be managed for dun factored Spanish Mustangs. Ron stated that he put out the Brindle mare to preserve her. Brindles were very rare in 1970s (still rare today) so he kept her safe out in the Kiger HMA. They were hoping she would reproduce her color. Of course, back then they didn't know brindles were chimerias.

Jillian

[karismakigers]

kigerfan said:

Wow, I've never seen a chestnut friesian, that would just be wierd. Why would someone want one when the breed color has always been black?
I think the topic of grey will go on for a long time. It's going to depend whether we want to follow the original blm standards or create our own.

The original registry has taken a strong stand on registration so that people can continue to think black when thinking of the Friesian horses.

friesian-crazy.tripod.com/health.html

Apparently, they are pulling Approval ratings on stallions previous rated as "breeding quality" that carry the chestnut gene. In order to be Approved for breeding by the FPS registry, the submitting stallion must test negative for the chestnut gene. They are allowing mares to be carriers, but they do not register chestnuts colored horses. Eventually, they will be able to weed out the gene from the gene pool.

There are those in the breed that decided they wanted to promote the Chestnut coloration. (i.e. changing the breed). They are now producing and selling chestnut friesians as "fox friesians".

Jillian

[DianneC]

As I remember Ron was concerned that the horses on Smyth Creek might get over to the Kiger HMA and mingle with the Kigers. We looked for a way to get to the Smyth Creek area when we were there last year but didn't want to go around by way of the main highway and cross private land and couldn't cross the ravine. Is there a way around if you go higher past the viewing area?
Speaking of brown, this year there were several Kigers that were brown. I don't remember seeing any of those in the previous adoption.
If they allow the Fresian mares to continue to have one recessive red gene then 50% of their foals will also have the red gene. They aren't going to eliminate it very fast that way.

[karismakigers]

diannec said:

As I remember Ron was concerned that the horses on Smyth Creek might get over to the Kiger HMA and mingle with the Kigers. We looked for a way to get to the Smyth Creek area when we were there last year but didn't want to go around by way of the main highway and cross private land and couldn't cross the ravine. Is there a way around if you go higher past the viewing area?
Speaking of brown, this year there were several Kigers that were brown. I don't remember seeing any of those in the previous adoption.
If they allow the Fresian mares to continue to have one recessive red gene then 50% of their foals will also have the red gene. They aren't going to eliminate it very fast that way.

I am not aware of any concern of Ron's with Smyth Creek and East Kiger horses mingling. Smyth Creek was an HMA that was for intermediate types (if you would). East Kiger had the best examples of the Kiger horses, Smyth Creek were the second best, and Riddle Mountain were the lowest examples of Kiger horses. Some horses that were released in Smyth Creek ended up traveling over to East Kiger and congregating on Yank Springs. East Kiger and Smyth Creek were combined in 1987. Smyth Creek HMA consisted of Diamond Grade Field, Shepard Spring Field, Big Hill Field. Happy Valley, Barton Lake and Hill Fields were small detacted fields and not part of the herd management area (1975). When they gathered Smyth Creek in 1975, they drove them on horseback to the horse trap on Kiger Allotment. So, I don't think it is too difficult to get from Kiger to the old Smyth Creek HMA.

Regarding browns, in 1999 there were 2303 (bay colt from Kiger), 2359 (bay colt from Kiger), 2363 (bay from Kiger), 2292 (black colt from Kiger, could be seal brown), 2263 (bay filly from Kiger), 2326 (black from Riddle, could be seal brown), 2268 (black from Kiger, could be seal brown), 2331 (bay from Riddle), 2265 (black from Kiger, could be seal brown), 2312 (bay stallion from Kiger), 2335 (bay colt from Riddle), 2338 (black stallion from Riddle, could be seal brown), 2341 (bay stallion from Riddle), 2261 (black mare from Kiger, could be seal brown).

In 2003, I'll have to pull up my catalog. I don't have it in front of me.

BLM culls the breeding population by adopting out the horses; either true culls or excess good horses. The bays or seal browns will pop up when the horse fails to get a dun gene from one of its parents to dilute the color.

True, FPS isn't getting rid of the chestnut gene quickly. However, a small % of the bloodlines carry the chestnut gene. By not allowing any Approved stallions to carry the chestnut gene they are ensuring that foals will not be born chestnut. Each time a carrier mare is born, 50% of her foals will have the gene and 50% will not. Eventually the % of carriers will go down over time. It is a slow way of weeding out the gene, while maintaining enough mares to continue the breed. A stallion could produce hundreds or even thousands of foals during his breeding lifetime. A mare might be able to produce 25 foals depending on how early she is bred and for how many years she remains viable. They are following a pretty standard gene elimination formula; first restrict the males from carrying it, while allowing the females to carry it. Their next move will be to prevent mares from carrying it. I wouldn't be surprised if the registry prevents mare carriers to be registered in ten/fifteen years from now. Just like the elimination of HYPP from the QH lines.

Jillian

[DianneC]

karismakigers said:

As you can see, only the Brown brindle mare and her bay colt and the dark brown stallion (1983) were the only ones released into the Kiger HMAs after the 1979 Memo that Kiger/Riddle/Smyth would be managed for dun factored Spanish Mustangs. Ron stated that he put out the Brindle mare to preserve her. Brindles were very rare in 1970s (still rare today) so he kept her safe out in the Kiger HMA. They were hoping she would reproduce her color. Of course, back then they didn't know brindles were chimerias.

Jillian

I was just thinking about your post and remembering there was a gather that removed all the horses from Smyth Creek because there were Kigers on East Kiger. The reason that they were removed was that they were non-Kigers and could get over to the East Kiger area. It was early on in Kiger history, late 1970s as I recall. I'm thinking that Ron would not have put a bunch of solid horses on a Kiger range. It wouldn't make sense since he was selecting for dun factored horses. So the horses put on Smyth Creek in 1978 would have been removed for that reason when it was made a Kiger HMA, or shortly thereafter.