Changes in the AKHR

[nrly]

welcome

[kimk]

[It would have to be on Riddle, if it happened. There are too many people out on the Kiger each year for a "ringer" to escape notice.]

First, I have to disagree. This is simply not true. there are many people on Riddle every year too, and the BLM certainly does what it wants when it wants with whom it wants.

Secondly, as far as Jillians response....
Just food for thought folks....
Just because that is the way it all began with Ron and Josh and whomever....does that make it right and does that make it what we want? It used to be a common belief that "the less white the stronger the dun factor" ( I call it an 'old cowboys tale') but now in modern times, that has been proven to be false. Dr Penado from the University of Davis answered with a strong resounding "NO" when asked at her presentation to the KMA on equine color genetics, if white markings and dun factor were genetically related, and she also strongly disagreed with the familiar statement "the less white the stronger the dun factor".
Like I said, food for thought.

[Michelle Clarke]

Kim, thanks for your input.

I have been a wonderen' lately why the need to stick to the "original" standards set up at the begining. From what I saw at the adoption, many did not fit the standard in phenotype and color as the law lays down. Since now the herds are "managed", then it is no longer survival of the fittest and the herds are forced to change at every roundup. This means that while we all like the idea of the wild and nature vs nurture, the plain truth is that these herds ARE influenced by human hands and not always in the best interest of the breed so to speak.

It has been said that the Riddle herd is heavily draft influenced...there has been talk of QH's and such released and lets not forget the other horses put on those management areas. So, while there is an ideal that is formed form the original, that is no longer. Family groups and nucleuses are stirred up and changed and that only leads to changes in the herds.

There needs to be a breed standard for those next generations in captivity to evolve and better the breed for the future. As I have said before, just because things are condusive to surivival in the wild, does not make it the best fit for those then bred for domestication and usability in the equine world.

We all know the market is hugely changed and horses need to be usable to be sellable. There are so many things the Kiger brings to the table above other breeds - let's perpetuate that and improve on the others! Color should be far down the list!

[karismakigers]

Hi Kim,

Just wanted to correct a possible interpretation on your post. I have NEVER, ever stated that I PERSONALLY felt less white equals more dun factor. My Charmer mare had incredible dun factor with great leg barring, hock barring, shoulder patches, and a sawtooth dorsal, yet she had two hind socks.

Even, KHAR's website eludes that "the less white equals more dun factor" is a myth.

www.kigerhorse.org/HowDoIRegister.html Under What if my Kiger has white?

"While KHAR acknowledges that the white pattern gene(s) does not interact with the dun factor gene(s), the Kiger horse was never meant to be a pinto or "paint" colored horse and therefore KHAR has followed the BLM Management Plans in penalizing the excessive white that can appear in the breed from time to time."

It is true that in the original 1979 memo, Ron, et al, did note a reference to this old cowboy tale, they also were dealing with what was believed to be the truth back then. Other old cowboy tales of the late 1970s & early 1980s were that two palominos produce albinos, wall-eyed horses were blind, buckskin and dun were the same color, and two or more whorls on the head meant dumb, untrainable horses. We cannot fault them for believing what was the then "science" or even "common knowledge" of the time. They could only work on what they had at the time.

Jillian McIntosh

[karismakigers]

admin said:

I have been a wonderen' lately why the need to stick to the "original" standards set up at the begining. From what I saw at the adoption, many did not fit the standard in phenotype and color as the law lays down. Since now the herds are "managed", then it is no longer survival of the fittest and the herds are forced to change at every roundup. This means that while we all like the idea of the wild and nature vs nurture, the plain truth is that these herds ARE influenced by human hands and not always in the best interest of the breed so to speak.

It has been said that the Riddle herd is heavily draft influenced...there has been talk of QH's and such released and lets not forget the other horses put on those management areas. So, while there is an ideal that is formed form the original, that is no longer. Family groups and nucleuses are stirred up and changed and that only leads to changes in the herds.

Michelle,

One of the problems of late is that the herds HAVE NOT been managed according to the management plan. The round ups since Ron left BLM have been gate cuts only. That means no selection on horses returning to the wild. In 2003, they put back a gelding, a parrot mouth and a blind mare amongst the horses returned. There was no selection for Kiger type, conformation, etc.

Plus there hasn't been a complete round up like they did in earlier years. Usually they would round up all horses, missed horses were sometimes gathered during off years (not just the round up year). Ron moved them around according to how they fit into the standard of what he wanted. Some went to the other Kiger HMA (rounded up in Riddle, released in Kiger, and vice versa.) Others were sent to other HMAs.

Is the quality of the horses decreasing because of the gate cut and incomplete roundups or because the genepool is experiencing a bottle necking or is there another explaination?

I don't know.

Ranch branded QHs have been found in Riddle. There are inholdings on both HMAs (private lands). Sometimes fencing isn't the greatest between inholdings and BLM range. One of these days I will have to get the records on any illegal stock range use for Riddle and Kiger. It would list what was caught on the HMA that wasn't suppose to be there. BLM patrols the HMAs when they have resources and time and will round up escapees, holding the animal(s) and charging a fee for the illegal grazing.

There are some Kigers that are showing more draft influence (larger heads, draft nose, bigger feet, rounder bone, etc.) Personally, I think they are probably throw backs to horses that hadn't been completely cleared off Riddle. And no, I'm not picking on Riddle as an HMA as the home to all the "uglies'....Riddle was selected by Ron to have the lowest level of requirements for Kiger characteristics. Kiger quality increased when you traveled from Riddle, Smyth, to East Kiger HMA. I think namely this allowed Ron to have enough horses to work with and since East Kiger had the viewing area, he wanted the public to see the best horses there. (By the way, I have many Riddle mares in my herd, so I have nothing against Riddle horses.)

If you think illegal range use doesn't happen in this day and age....During the roundup this year, I took some people out to the HMA. Hundreds and hundreds of cattle from the first cattle guard back to the old water trap pen. In November, that is illegal, there is not suppose to be any cattle out there, the permit graze time is over with by November. We let BLM know and they were very surprised and upset that cattle where on the BLM range. Not a single cow to be found on the private inholding land, and they had great graze on the inholding so it wasn't that the cattle escaped looking for better food.

Some horses have even been found off the HMAs. Going through the records, I have found several notations where it stated that the horses was gathered from outside the HMA. I believe even as late as 2003, I'll have to double check that. I haven't checked into the freezebrand to determine if they were already freezebranded when they were found wandering or not.

Management of Riddle/Kiger goes far beyond what horses are put back out. It also has to deal with cattle permit grazing, wildlife grazing and balancing other public resources (off roading, hunting, geo-thermal, mining, etc.).

I think the BLM Management Plan is flexible enough to allow people to breed a Kiger that fits into the category regardless of their pursuit.

Jillian McIntosh

[kigerfan]

I too have been awed by the bickering and discrepencies between all of the people involved in the breed. Since it is a 'new' breed, maybe that is just part of the growing pains, who knows. I do want to register Firefly, I just haven't yet because I'd really just like to register her with one registry... The Registry... for the breed, but I can't see that as something that is ever going to happen. I have been without a job since September first and am very very light on money. My main focus has been to make sure all of my animals are cared for. Registering has to be on the back burner for now until I can get another position. But I would love to see all the registries get together and hash out agreements and come up with one registery for us all. There really aren't that many kigers out there to warrant so much problems and misery.

[fantasykiger]

You would think so kigerfan, but sense I have been involved this past 11 years as a lurker, I have learned much about the Kiger Mustang and the passion of people behind the horse.
I still would love to own a pure Kiger Mustang one day but until I know just what that is (I used to think I knew what it was) I will stick to my half breeds. Don't get me wrong what ever horses I got out back and the so called Kiger Mustangs I have spent time with have been the most wonderful beautiful horses I have had the joy of knowing. Why else would anyone fight so hard to ensure they stay that way.

[nrly]

that is one of my questions : Who decided the standards someone who had nothing to gain. or a group of people with allot to gain. This breed is what we need to focus on, i feel my two meet the standards. I feel each owner should have a say before rules are set in stone, also we owners of full and 1/2 kigers should vote for these standards. 1 vote per owner no matter how many horses you have. this is my thought.
nola

[Michelle Clarke]

Nola, You have good thoughts, but as far as I can tell, no registry has been member friendly or gives them such a voice. Now, Jillians registry seems to do so. Maybe there is no member participation in the other registries and that CAN be an issue. Folks like to complain, but then agian don't get off their kiester and get active about it.

The IALHA just went through that - folks major complaining and dissing all the decisions that were being made and come to find out - most were not even members, especially VOTING memebers (the IALHA charges $150/yr to be a voting member). Now, I understand that is expensive, but when you are serious about being active and supporting your breed, you do it and your voice is heard.

[nrly]

you know it is sad when owners can't have a say, here is another thought, since the issue of found horse's is a road block, why not make a registry for them like the APHA did when the AQHA would not accept allot of white on a horse. then sister them in or keep them their own registry. that way it isn't an issue and all the horse's have a place to get papered.
nola

[desperatehorsewife]

One of the things I found while cruising for the Oklahoma facts was a little tidbit on the Spanish Colonial, and how the president there allowed friends to register non-spanish horses. I think every breed registry's got this sort of skeleton in it's closet.

But like I said before, found is in, forget about it. As everyone has pointed out, there are BB horses still who look better than the Kigers, so just accept that they're in, be glad for some genetic diversity, start breeding them only to Kigers and after a few generations thats what they'll be. What are you going to do? Start a dun mustang registry?

As for membership deciding; put two people in a room and give them a list of 50 things to do with horses, and they'll be bound to disagree on something. Put 100 people in and there will be all sorts of opinions. That's why we're stuck with so many registries; not everyone can agree on all points. Time to grow up, pick the one that comes closest to meeting your expectations, and let go of the pride that stops you from moving forward. (That's a collective you, not a finger pointing you )

[lindad]

Nola,
You suggest a separate registry for found blood. You really need to understand the history. There must be someone who saved a copy of the monster threads. Two years ago, Kiger "owners" were debating strongly to do something about this issue, trying to let KMA know the opinions that Kiger owners held so that we could have a cohesive registry. Eventually, after weeks of hot debate the KMA closed it's message board to non-members. Many people did not understand the significance of the found horse issue until that debate. Many, would not even stop fighting long enough to understand the opposing views in order to develop an informed opinion, but ranted endlessly about something of which they had no understanding to form a basis of their opinion.

The original Kiger registry, the largest Kiger registry is the KMA who has the found horses registered without even designating those horses as such. There are folks working to try to get that to change within the registry, but thus far it has not happened. So how is it you think that they would start a separate registry for found horses? KMA hides the origins of found horses, even has lied about their origins, falsifying records.
The other registries have been started not only to manage that issue but other goals as well. Now, we have splintered our collective influence in order to circumvent the KMA vs becoming paid members with rights to influence the KMA. I for one don't want to support a group that won't clean house. There are some people in the KMA that have pulled some awful stunts to force non-complying people from their ranks, and or denied membership to them. But if we want to be heard, we need to join and support an effort. Problem is we have too many efforts without enough support behind any one of them! Divide and conquer. We can gripe on the boards all we want to and KMA goes along status quo. They have no obligation to do anything they don't want to do, unless you join their association.

As new registries were started, Rick then banned owners of Kigers from his registry if after a target date they became members of any registry that even acknowledged found horses. Bad move in my opinion. While I doubt that has much sway, it did not help those attempting to manage the problem. Rick's mission is to destroy KMA and rid the breed of found blood. His is a no compromise position. The end result of all of these events is we have people not registering their Kigers at all because, no registry has enough clout, people that hold the Kigers in esteem are leaving the breed.

Deseratehorsewife,
Found are likely to stay. Remember, not all found are from Beattys Butte, that would be easy. They also come from outside of Oregon! Outside blood can be good for a breed. It just shouldn't be done covertly. Without up front information about the foundations of your bloodlines how can one make informed breeding choices to meet their breeding goals.

Linda D

[nrly]

I do not know how Linda, it was just a thought. since there is so much controversy over that issue it was just an opinion that I had. seem then we are not ever going to go anywhere if people can't and wont ban together,or admit wrong doings. i jsut was wishing late last night.
nola

[Michelle Clarke]

I think the answer is in the above posts.....identifiy the horses, make it known and move on. Let breeders and buyers make the decisions, the pure founds are getting old anyway and if folks are still breeding found to found, then that needs to be addressed and bred down too.

[lindad]

Michelle,
Exactly! That has been my stance since I came to understand what the found horse controversy was about. You can't undo what was done that many years ago with that many horses and owners involved. It was mishandled from the beginning and that is the issue. The found horses could not have hurt the breed anywhere near what the deceit, fighting and division has caused. Compromise to move on from here is the only thing that makes sense. SMKR can and should be the registry of "purest" if such a thing ever existed and wasn't only "hype" as described in Forbes. (Ironic isn't it that the person who fights for purity refers to it as hype). I certainly bought into the legend and wanted there to be a purity of Kiger. On the other hand, only time and analysis of the contribution of bloodlines will tell if found blood was a mistake or a benefit, to the horses. The rest is a man made concept, given we are working with mustangs. Regardless, founds are part of the breed. Only individual breeders can decide what to do with that information and how it relates to their breeding program. That information needs to be readily available to the public as potential buyers/ breeders. How to present and manage found blood will become the legacy of this generation of Kiger owners, Kiger registeries, and to the future of the breed. We have to work together to make that happen.

Nola,
My post was not meant to be a criticism of you, and I apologize if it appeared to be and if I offended you. It was not my intent. I have had many musings on-line, a number of which were regretted later. Sometimes I "wonder" out loud. I have my share of Duh moments. You were just throwing an idea out there. I don't fault that. I believe brainstorming to be very useful, which is throwing any and all ideas out there, because even a bad idea can trigger the route to a workable one. I just encourage EVERYONE to learn what the issue is about and what has taken place already so that we develop informed opinions, and effective, workable solutions that the majority can get behind. Every "newbie" has to start at the beginning, weed through the crap and if not run off, form an opinion. Almost all are most enthusiastic, initially, until they have "gone around the mulberry bush" too many times.
Two years ago it became apparent to me that there were a lot of people who held strong positions without knowing anything about the issue or more importantly, the implications of the found horse issue, or how it came to be. The issue was obscured by the fighting and name calling and outright tacky behavior between parties. I respect differing opinions, just not uninformed rigidly held opinions that are not based on some solid information. At that time I held no opinion because I didn't know or understand the history of the found horse and how it happened. I still don't pretend to know or to understand it completely as I wasn't there. When I did know and understand ENOUGH of the history and how it the found horse issue effects the breed, I took a position and started to look for solutions that would best fit for where we are NOW in Kiger history, because there are no do overs. The only real obstacle is how to get people to work together when they have various views, their own agendas and enormous mistrust of one another, and are stuck on their own biases.
Mistrust and division has been the most potent legacy to come from the found horse issue. I certainly do not want to foster any more of that! I think it is great to debate ideas. I think bashing people personally on a public forum is offensive, and takes from us all and prohibits finding solutions. If I am guilty of that then I am very sorry indeed.
Linda D