Question on found horse issue

[idahomustanger]

Kelly - the first picture of Baby is priceless! What a great shot!

Nancy

[canadiankigers]

Thanks Nancy, but I can't take credit for it. It was Bill who took the picture.

[fantasykiger]

Are you comparing foundblood to partblood Kigers ? In my opinion they are two very differant creatures. Of course literally they are not, but if you put them in same category it could make things very confusing to someone one new to the breed.

I am home to the halfbreeds, but not found horses.

[nightrider]

There seems to be the misconception that the original found horses are somewhat less than what we consider Kigers.
Ron Harding gave a lengthy talk about the found horse issue with question and answer period to the KMA at the last adoption.
Ron gave his credentials as a Biologist and went on to tell us about his selection process and reasoning for picking out the horses he wanted to add to the Kiger herd.
The term Found Horse was a tag the KMA gave to these horses, and what a mistake that was!
Ron was personally picking and choosing the Kiger horses, at the risk of his job long before his management jumped on the bandwagon.
Ron was interviewing and collecting the history of these horses from all the old timers and anyone else that knew of them.
When everyone jumped on the band wagon Ron was in charge of personally making all the gate cuts to cull the herd for public adoption and return the best back to the range.
After Ron’s presentation there was a motion made and passed by the KMA to approach the BLM and to allow Ron to continue with the Kiger horse selections as a volunteer in his retirement. I can’t tell you where that stands as information from my organization is hard to come by.
My point is Ron Harding knew what he was doing and it was to strengthen the Kiger gene pool not to cause a foolish controversy. Had there been no KMA and more room on the Kiger range this controversy would not be taking place because Ron would have added them to the Kiger herd.
Following is a picture of the First Batch of Found Horses brought to the KMA by Ron Harding for there acceptance. There are five horses in the picture. Barbara adopted the grulla that is Kiger Tiger Mystique, the other members present adopted the other four horses. Barbra believes there were 7 to 9 horses total but the BLM held back the others one of which was Tea Kup. All these horses were off the Sheeps Head range.
What we note about Misty is she has Incredible natural cow instinct, she is a little bit more wound up and yet low dog on the totem pole in the herd.

To sum up my thoughts there is no Foundation or Found Kigers because they were all Found and grouped together on the Kiger range, With the exception of those horses that weren’t selected to be added to the Kiger herd.

To sum up my thoughts there is no Foundation or Found Kigers because they were all Found and grouped together on the Kiger range, With the exception of those horses that weren’t selected to be added to the Kiger herd.

George



Note leg markings






Misty foal KMA score 97 two inspectors in person

[canadiankigers]

Good point Tiffany. I guess what I am saying is that the CKMR considers found blood as a non Kiger breed, therefore any crossings to a breed other than Kiger would be considered a partial blood, even if a Kiger is crossed with found blood. That would still be a partial blood Kiger provided at least one parent was of pure Kiger breeding. A prime example of this would be Saleen and her daughter Maid N Canada (aka Fuzzy). Saleen is by Chisom who is by Steens Kiger Silverado and out of Dakota. Dakota was from Paisley so that means that Saleen and all her offspring are partial blood Kigers. Let me know if you are still cnfused by my explanation. I would be happy to answer it another way.

[kimk]

Hey George,
With all due respect and acknowledging that Barb was indeed my mentor when I began in Kigers around 1989.... I hafta disagree with you to a certain extent. Horses such as Misty, and the other "found" horses which came from that group aren't what I take issue with, although I think even Barb would say they don't breed as true as her other Kigers ( in that they tend to produce a larger, coarser, and more often off colored offspring ). What I take issue with are the many many more "found" horses who were introduced after that, coming in from as far as herds in Nevada, and many other Oregon BLM herds which were not incorporated into the Kiger/Riddle HMA's by the BLM. I take a bigger issue with breeding "found" to "Found" as there you have just a dun mustang with a Kiger label on it. I do agree with many points both you and Nancy have made. I have produced my share of half Kiger foals out of my dun Nevada BLM mare ( who could have been registered had I gotten her earlier, although I don't know that I would have done that ). Every single one of her 8 foals from all 3 of my stallions could easily pass for a full Kiger.
Then again, if one were to base thier opinion soley on what the BLM intended or didn't intend, and what Ron may or may not have said, then I think this breed would be in a totally different place. The grey horses come to mind here..... Ron told me once that he felt they ( BLM ) had made a" big mistake" when they had turned out "them grey studs on the Kiger, thinking they was claybanks", and by the time they gathered them back off, "the damage was done". That would make all grey Kigers "found" or "partial" blood, now wouldn't it? What about non grey offspring of a grey Kiger?
But that's a whole 'nother controversy in itself!
Bottom line, it is what it is.
Kim

[fantasykiger]

Thanks Kelly. As it is my understanding found blood horses are horses that were found on differant HMAs, yet passed the KMA inspection to become registered Kiger Mustangs and that was the cause of the rift.

[nightrider]

Hi Kim
We agree totaly on the issue of horses coming from other HMA
To sum up my thoughts there is no Foundation or Found Kigers because they were all Found and grouped together on the Kiger range, With the exception of those horses that weren’t selected to be added to the Kiger herd.
In my thoughts those horses shouldn't be considered Found becouse they were never intended to be part of the Kiger herd. Those horses shouldn't of made it into the registry and I understand that many were never registered.
I feel the term Found horse should only apply to those horses that were intended to be Kigers and the others a diffrent term applied to.
George

[canadiankigers]

As it is my understanding found blood horses are horses that were found on differant HMAs, yet passed the KMA inspection to become registered Kiger Mustangs and that was the cause of the rift.

Yes Tiffany, I agree, that is why the CKMR does not consider them Kigers. Only those that came from either Kiger or Riddle HMA and carry the BLM freeze brand signifying them as such are considered to be pure Kigers.

[idahomustanger]

I agree, Kim.... it is what it is! Where does it go from here? There can be no more found horses added and hasn't been for some years, so why is there such a big stumbling block on what a Kiger is? I tend to agree with Jillian that the found blood is being thinned down..rather than mushrooming and that most people that have horses with found blood are breeding them, more likely than not, to other Kigers from captured from the Kiger or Riddle ranges. I certainly plan that if and when I breed my 1/2 Kiger - 1/2 Sheepshead filly Classy, that she is coming to see Fuego (like we've talked about) And I know my friend that has Selle has often said she'd like Selle to come and see Ki! I think there has to be a solution to this problem if people would just bend a bit... I actually think I see a glimmer of hope! First time in ages that I could say that! I think that the people that are talking about this now tend to be a bit more reasonable....I sincerely hope that unity comes to fruition.

[nightrider]

The best thing that can happen for the Kigers and Kiger breeders is for the breeders to be totaly honest about there horses and let the coustomer make an informed decision.
Thanks
George

[idahomustanger]

I guess you need to explain the difference to me of why a horse with Kiger blood AND found blood is different than a part blood. I'll use my Page as an example -- her Grandsire Wallowa Kiger was from Kiger HMA-- she has Kiger blood running throuh her veins -- Her sire Wallowa Apollo has that same blood in his veins. Apollo's dam was from Palomino Butte.... and Page's dam was from Sheepshead... but how does that discount the Kiger Blood from her Grandsire that she carries? Doesn't that mean that she is a part blood Kiger rather than a horse with just found blood? And yes, I think horses with both found blood and Kiger blood ARE THE SAME as partbloods. There IS no difference. And the horses that were registered in KMA as Kigers that were from different HMA's should be considered as Kigers. This was done in the past and was accepted by the majority of the members. THAT CANNOT BE UNDONE. Some people got disgruntled (I have my own theories about that) and it has turned into what we see today. People need to let the past go and go forward...I don't care if you label Page as a Kiger with 25% Kiger blood. But let her carry the Kiger name, because she is part Kiger. Put a percentage behind her name, WHATEVER. But do not discount her Kiger blood. Maybe that's the solution. I don't know. I do know that BLM will add whatever horses they want from whatever HMA's they want. And frankly after looking at the stock from the 2007 adoption when I was there, there were a lot of mealy muzzles and very little striping/leg bars, masking, etc. on the horses from the Kiger& Riddle HMA's. There were a few... but not near like there was at the 1999 adoption. The dun factor has changed dramatically during that short time span. I sincerely hope that is not a sign of things to come...

[Michelle Clarke]

Kim, were the "claybank" studs originally Kiger/Riddle or were they "found"...??

[karismakigers]

Jan 17, 2009 19:32:22 GMT -5 idahomustanger said:

And the horses that were registered in KMA as Kigers that were from different HMA's should be considered as Kigers. This was done in the past and was accepted by the majority of the members. THAT CANNOT BE UNDONE. Some people got disgruntled (I have my own theories about that) and it has turned into what we see today. People need to let the past go and go forward...

Also, one has to remember that open stud books are a part of horse breed creation for nearly every breed that you look at. During the creation of a breed, the registry allows horses of similar type to be presented and evaluated/inspected. Those with sufficient build and characteristics of the breed were accepted and registered as that breed. This happened in the Quarter Horse, Appaloosa, Morgan, even the Arabian and other "pure" breeds. The KMA did no different. At the beginning of the breed, additional "outside" horses were inspected and let into the open stud book. The stud book was then closed to only Kiger/Riddle adoptees or previous registered horses. KMA cannot be faulted on what they did. Many of the Sheepshead horses had better dun factor than even the original Beatty Butte dun horses gathered in 1977.

Jillian

[nightrider]

Your correct Jillian no one can fault the KMA for letting in the found horses that the BLM brought to them. The problem started when they didn't tighten up the loop hole to only BLM Oregon HMA horses. That was the original intent with the unanimous vote to accept the found horses as I understand it.
They are here and here to stay we can't turn back the clock.
Nor should we try
We will stay with all foundation horses except Misty. Her foal will be added to a new breeding program we are starting

George