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Post by dazzlingduns on Jul 15, 2008 12:18:55 GMT -5
You are exactly right Kim.
For those who have not figured out that laziness is a training issue, than all I can say is ignorance is bliss!
Melissa
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Post by nrly on Jul 15, 2008 13:23:49 GMT -5
thank you Lisa, yes it is a lazy thing, but over time it will be remedied, and to those who feel it is a training issue again it is your choice, thank you for all your words, whether I liked them or not, but what you all have to take into thought is yes you did attack me when I was just sharing an issue with people who have helped me in the past, no one knows me or my husband, and my horses. Stormy is over weight, we are working on that issue, she is the only one of our 5 including another Kiger who is 13 years old and being fed the same thing, and not over weight. I feel this could have been handled differently, but that is just me I do not believe in Jumping into water head first, i believe in feet first, and then testing the water, as i was told by someone skybar is a fantastic person and I agree with that, but she might just step back and slow down, and offer advise in a different manner, she was the one who I felt was attacking me not pepper, or anyone else. I am a newbie to this breed but not to the horse world, no excuses I am in uncharted water for me. So I come her telling about what went on hoping for some advise, not the feeling i walked away with. We will be successful, I feel we already are iin allot of ways, and we will in all ways...
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Post by skybar on Jul 15, 2008 14:00:53 GMT -5
First off: Kudos to Kim K and Melissa you took the words right out of my mouth.
Secondly: Nola, I do sign my posts as Kara (my real name), and I would really like it when you post to me directly that you be kind enough to use my name. I make sure if someone is kind enough to sign with their real name that I be kind enough to address them the same way. Call it a pet peeve, but I think that is just more tactful.
Okay on to your post that was directed at me.
You stated:
“SKYbar she was abused when we got her and we have had to do allot of work to get her where she is at right now, and Jim rides with our trainer who is where we are at every weekend, Jim rides Flashy or Stormy depends on Jim, and she knew what she was like (Flashy) before we got her and is amazed at how well she is responding to Jim and the love and respect she is receiving from both of us. So i do know that I am doing what is best for them and they show it and that is all I care about my horse's. so again let us stop this and agree to disagree...”
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As far as stopping this, I must reply because you have directed it solely at me, which would make me think you are asking for a reply.
Which horse was abused, Flashy and/or Stormy? I commend you for the work you have put into an abused horse. I have done a lot of rehabbing over the years I know the works that goes into it.
As far as trainers, are you sure this is a good trainer working out of the facility that you board at? From the pictures you have posted of your horses being ridden I have not seen a progression of good horsemanship. I would reevaluate the trainer you are using, but on the other hand, I have seen very competent trainers who have not been able to get through to a rider because of the riders lack of wanting to get better. What I look for in a professional trainer is the following:
Are they accomplished at anything in the show ring? This does not include 4-H and little open shows. Even if the goal is just to have a good trail horse, I want someone that has been in the ring and other people have approved of their technique in training.
What tools do they use in their training method? I refuse to allow gimmicks to be used on my horses. The use of gimmicks in my opinion is a lack of proper understanding in how to train a horse properly. Gimmicks would be tie downs, draw reins, side reins, big bits to keep a horse from running through it ~ remember where at the beginning of the training phase here), and anything else that forces the horse in to a carriage of frame that is not appropriate to the horse.
Have they ever truly finished a horse? There are several trainers out there who have bought “made” horses and have tried to convince clients that they were the ones who finished the horse.
Can they properly convey the information they are teaching the horse to the owner who ultimately is going to be the one riding the horse? A trainer is useless if they cannot convey what they are teaching your horse and how you can also ride the horse in a similar fashion. There are plenty of okay riders out there who also “train horses”, who cannot explain to you how they got their horse to perform a flying lead change.
Does the trainer effectively ride the horse? Meaning, do they look like a sack of potatoes on the horse, or do they look like they “know” what they are doing? I have seen several trainers get on a horses back and just frustrate the hell out of a horse because the trainer is guessing as to what to do and how to do it. I watch my horse to see if they are tail wringing, pinning their ears etc… Now granted a lazy horse might do this for a short time, but an effective trainer will be able to convey to the horse what he is asking him/her to do in a short amount of time.
Does the trainer continue to further their own knowledge by attending workshops, clinics, lessons etc….? Some of the very best trainers and instructors I have worked with still take lessons and attend clinics. You NEVER know it all!
Is the trainer willing to give several references on horses and owners that they have worked with? I’m not talking 5 horses here. I want to know the trainer I have hired is accomplished at what they do. I want to see a large list of horses and owners.
How many horses has the trainer trained and did the horse reach the goal that the owner and trainer originally set and was the time frame reasonable? I unfortunately know of trainers who just string owners along for years, either for the money or their lack of knowledge. To attain a finished bridle horse, it will take years. You should see a steady progression in your horse and in your own horsemanship. If you don’t you need a new trainer.
There are other criteria that I look for, but this is what I start with.
As far as her responding to the love and respect Jim and you are showing her… horses will adapt to their circumstances….. They are amazing in what they will deal with.
If you do know what you are doing with them, then why bother posting all the questions. I was under the impression this board was for asking questions and getting advice to help further ones learning. I’m sorry I misunderstood.
But if all you wanted to hear was a "Thata girl" and a pat on the back, well here you go... Thatta girl and give yourself a pat on the back Nola. I thought you wanted help and advise to get better. Again my mistake. Sorry.
Kara
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Post by skybar on Jul 15, 2008 14:42:42 GMT -5
as i was told by someone skybar is a fantastic person and I agree with that, but she might just step back and slow down, and offer advise in a different manner, she was the one who I felt was attacking me not pepper, or anyone else. Geez Louise Nola, I just went back and reread all my posts previous to this last one you posted. I have no idea where you felt I was attacking "you". Please point out to me where I "attacked" you. I was offering advice to you and presenting scenarios that you had already posted about, where you needed to improve your's and Jim's horsemanship to help your horses and yourselves. Good Grief! If that is attacking someone then I am definetly missing something. Kara |
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Post by kimk on Jul 15, 2008 14:55:43 GMT -5
I had my stallion Fuego with a trainer over the winter. She kept saying how lazy he was, and she was having lots of trouble getting him to canter. I went out to watch a training session, and noticed right off that he wasn't moving right on his rear end. No wonder he didn't want to canter! I took him to the chiropractor and he was out quite badly. He stayed 2 weeks with my chiropractor and had several adjustments. He moved much better after that, and readily picked up his canter. The chiropractor felt confident that his being out was caused by poor saddle fit. ( the trainers saddle ) I no longer will use that trainer. I just cannot believe she was trying to force him into a canter and did not notice he was not moving correctly. I just wanted to post that experience as it was not laziness causing that problem, but had been labeled as laziness by the "trainer". Stormy was seen by the chiropractor right?
Kim
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Post by nrly on Jul 15, 2008 19:55:57 GMT -5
flashy is who i am referring to as abused, we have never abused any of our horse's. 2 of our horse's have been abused and we knew that when we bought them. now Stormy is not out of place we had the chiropractor out right after the fall, so we know that is not the issue, Kara I ask you to forgive me not using your name . but let us stop this and agree to disagree... So i am working with my horse's and am told by trainers that we are doing a good job, yes we both (human and horse) have things to work on, but with out seeing Stormy, Flashy, or myself in the saddle, or husband no one can say I an hurting her. I would never say that about someone, what i would have said is their a possibility of this or this and get a person thinking... but that is just me. so as of this time forward I am through trying to explain my horses and myself to people who I do not know, so lets stop this ok Kara?
you told me I was hurting my horse's with out even knowing me. I do get offended by that.
Saddle fit is good on stormy, but I am going to change her saddle, am looking at a Maxwell saddle. Just because she is so short bodied. when she sweats their is no dry spots under the saddle, and we also lift up the pad as was recommended by Julie Goodnight to take the pressure off the withers, which is what we do and we do it to all our horse.
Most of the time I type faster then my mind so some do not make sense, and I try to correct all of that, it is something I have heard family complain about for my whole life, and I can not seem to correct it. So I ask you all to ask me questions like Kara did on Stormy and Flashy, cause in my mind it all made sense. and later after others post i finally see that it does not always make sense.
but please do not make me feel as I felt over these last issues, I thank you all for input wanted or not, i will think before i speak, and I hope I get the same back, I will take into heart how i come across, I hope the same will be given...
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Post by stormyranch on Jul 15, 2008 20:06:55 GMT -5
| I can see where you would blame the falls on Stormy being lazy. She probably is.... she is grossly overweight, which I'm sure contributes to her laziness. Kim |
Your above post is more of what I meant to say. That the weight issue was more of a problem for Stormy than JUST a training issue! |
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Post by kimk on Jul 15, 2008 21:15:56 GMT -5
Hey Nola,
I honestly don't see anyone attacking you in reading all the posts. Just giving advice. I wish you wouldn't take it all so personally. no one is even disagreeing with you, just giving thier perspective from your description of how things happened. no one wants to see you get hurt and they are just trying to help you avoid that in the future. That is just how I percieve it when I read it. John Lyons once made a statement that I will always remember and try to live by... he said "don't cement up". Basically it means keep an open mind; open to learning. Because when it comes to horses, we (and they) are ALWAYS learning.
Good luck with Stormy, I'm sure you'll get there with her.
Kim
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