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Post by skybar on Jul 3, 2008 20:55:12 GMT -5
Nola,
I am going to echo Melissa's posts. Please do not assume you are being attacked. The advice Melissa offered is good and solid and no malice was intended from what I read. Instead of being defensive and trying to look back and figure out what happened,think positively and look forward.
Stormy is out of shape and she is green. You are not a professional, nor is your husband. All that was stated is that you seek professional help to advance your horsemanship. Only 2 falls in two years, does not a good rider make. Managing to stay on is not all there is to good horsemanship.
It is not normal for a generally calm horse to do the following: "Jim was working her, making her back up, she tripped, went down on her butt, then Jim bailed off, then she went over to her side."
This is very harmful and down righy dangerous not only to the horse, but the rider as well. I have seen the pictures you have posted of Jim riding and frankly, he would not be on any of my horses. His hands are heavy, which could have led to the incident of her falling over.
As far as arthritis and bad knees, you are preaching to the choir. I have dealt with Jr. Rehumatoid Arthrits since I was 15 years old and I have had major knee surgery on both my knees several times. I keep my body weight to a level my knees can manage and I keep as active as possible to keep the arthritis at bay. I do not allow my arthritis to be an excuse for poor riding technique. I may not be a world class olympic rider, but I do my best to make sure my riding does not hinder my horse. I use my seatbones and legs to cue my horses and that is how it should be done. Not off the horses' face.
Again, instead of taking great advice and being insulted when no insult was there, think positively and seek the help you need and do not be ashamed to ask for it. We have all sought out help at one time or another. Believe me Stormy will thank you for it later.
Kara
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Post by DianneC on Jul 4, 2008 0:34:45 GMT -5
Nola, one of the greatest thing about horses is that you are always learning. Having a really good trainer is the best, fastest and safest way to learn, both for you and your horse. There are worlds of things I still need to learn and I've been at this 10 years. I had my trainer out to help me with a horse just this last week. I still take lessons once a week as I'm learning a new way to ride, and I love it. That you and Jim love your horses and want to do the very best for them is a given. That we love you and sincerely want to see you and your horses at their best is a given too. Melissa's first post was rather blunt but her intent was to help you. I know you won't let the way something was said keep you from considering its value. We really don't want you, Jim or Stormy getting hurt and if she keeps falling that's going to happen. I wish I'd had a better trainer when I started riding because now I'm unlearning things. So watch some good trainers work and find one that you like to help you out. They are especially valuable at times like this. And you are going to love learning more about riding your beloved horse.
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Post by DianneC on Jul 4, 2008 0:58:59 GMT -5
I understand, I've done that too a couple times. I think it was that she fell twice in such a short time that worried us. That is unusual and needs to be figured out as to why. That's when a good trainer is worth their weight in gold. You ruled out chiropractic issues so that's a good first step.
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Post by dazzlingduns on Jul 4, 2008 9:14:48 GMT -5
Addressing the point "blount", in this situation is desperately called for. There is no room for "gray" areas pertaining to horse husbandry, handling, training and riding. It is either black or white. Correct or questionably incorrect. Incorrect situations can be at best dangerous, or at the worst fatal to either horse, rider or both.
*************Dealing with equines can be dangerous. ******************
We do not need to magnify the inherent danger by incorrect horsemanship practices. Yes, there is a learning process in horsemanship and we ALL make mistakes. When facing a dilemma, seek professional help before you allow or create a dangerous situation. Use common sense! Everyone needs assistance at times.
Training a Kiger is NO DIFFERENT than training any other breed of horse!!!!!!!One from the wild will require more preliminary work than most captive bred ones.
I receive inquiries several times monthly to take horses in for training. I refuse to do so for several reasons. The main reason is my horses require the extra time, and I am not willing to sacrifice time from my horses for extra income. Another reason is I refuse to risk my health and safety on a strange horse. I refuse to put time and training on a horse without rider/owner taking instruction also. I do however assist and instruct select riders with horses in hand and under saddle free of charge. I do not beat around the bush with instruction. I do not "baby" riders through the process of learning proper skills. Only those who are serious about improvenment and better communication with their horses are the ones who keep coming back. The reward for me is to be aquainted and surrounded by people who share my ambitions to strive for excellence in thier horsemanship skills. I thank them for enduring me and my blountness. Their sacrifice of their time from their busy hectic lives is enough. I do not think they should have to endure a financial sacrifice in order to develop a better partnership with their horses. I am greatly honored and pleased to be associated with such a wonderful group of people who are dedicated to the well being of their horses. They are the best! I have wintessed horse /human partnerships destroyed by working under the wrong "professionals."
Melissa
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Post by pepper on Jul 4, 2008 12:14:29 GMT -5
Hey Nola,I'm 61 yrs old...first photo taken of me on a horse,I was 4 months old.......first formal lesson at age 5.last lesson taken to date,2 months ago.
I always gotta laugh when I tell someone(who's NOT a horse person) that I'm taking a riding lesson and their reply is "gee,you've been riding all your life...don't you know HOW yet???"There's always more to learn & nothing like an objective trained eye watching from the ground to point out bad habits or helpful hints to help you & your horse communicate better.That's what riding is,listening & responding between horse & rider.
The fact that Stormy fell down twice recently is a red flag .Most horses will do almost anything to prevent themselves from falling as they are so vulnerable on the ground.Pay attention & listen to her & having a "pro" check her out is a good idea.JMHO
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Post by nrly on Jul 4, 2008 16:20:56 GMT -5
this last fall according to my husband was because she was backing up in a wash and did not pick up her feet, and today as I was backing her we saw that she is being lazy, she does wonderful then you can tell ok I don't want to pick em up, and she doesn't for a few steps, then she's fine, but people will make comments on this I know and I know I posted i was not going to post anymore, but this is it for a while, oh yeah it is all on video, Flashy does this also. I thought though with stormy it might have been the cinch is too tight,and you all know what a horse will do if that is the cinch, well she is so round that I worried it was too tight... yes I to am still learning not just riding, but what makes things tick, life and who I am. our whole life we are learning.. getting ready also to take a on line class at Michigan State on horse behavior...
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Post by skybar on Jul 4, 2008 17:04:33 GMT -5
Nola,
This whole post just screams to me why you and Jim both need to find a good trainer.
a. Why was Jim backing her up in a wash to begin with? You need to set the horse up for success not failure.
b. Her being lazy sounds to me like she is heavy on the front end. The rider needs to help elevate the front end for a horse like this and collect them properly. I have a few horses that are naturally heavy on the front. I collect them and teach them through my aids to pick up their front end and engage from their backend.
I’m going to bring up Jim’s heavy hands again. He is not doing Stormy any favors by being on her mouth. He has taught her to lean on to the bit making her even heavier on the front. Hence the tripping and falling over that Stormy has done. This is not something that most amateurs can fix without proper guidance from a trainer.
c. Flashy doing this also is more evidence that she is not being ridden properly.
d. I’m glad you have it on video. Please sit down and study it, watch what the rider is doing with his body. I’m will bet Jim has his hands high and his feet forward and the reins pulled back with too much pressure on her mouth, and watch for the lack of a release of rein when she backs a step. What is happening is he is creating a hard mouthed horse. You have to help her to learn to be light on the aids. Again I will stress the need for an accomplished trainer.
I am glad you are getting ready to take a class on horse behavior, hopefully it will help progress your learning and give you insight to the damage that is happening to Stormy and how to prevent it.
Kara
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Post by angelsdream on Jul 8, 2008 12:04:27 GMT -5
Nola - I understand. I myself am starting riding lesson's next week to improve on my balance and skills. I've come to a point where Ive lost my confidence in my seat so need some help. Im bouncing everywhere and not sure what Im doing, so am going to seek professional help which will help me and my horse. It is very hard to see what's going on because you may not think you're doing this or that, but until you film yourself or let someone else watch you, then you may be able to see stuff.
Good luck and hang in there!! We've all been where you're at and am sure we'll cross that bridge again if we keep riding. Like everyone has said, everyday is a learning day!
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Post by nrly on Jul 14, 2008 17:24:31 GMT -5
stormy is ok, she is just a lazy mare when it comes to lifting her feet, which in return caused her to fall, A trainer we know who has studied under several came over and worked with her. She also told us we did a wonderful job with her and her training. But now we need to work her in sand to make her lift up those feet, and build her up, and help her loose her belly, she passed all of her blood work with flying colors, which I am so pleased, I was worried. But in the end she is just lazy with her feet. And I am not hurting her in any way, she watched me ride her, and how we work together. We both have things we need to work on, and I am, but all in all Stormy is ok, and the training we did on her did not hurt her as some have suggested. I was not going to post this, but decided I needed to set things straight. I would not hurt her or nay animal... They are a gift from God to each of us, and just like my children who are also a gift, meant to be taken care of taught, and loved...if that makse me a bad horse person then thank you I will be that...
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Post by dazzlingduns on Jul 14, 2008 19:28:13 GMT -5
WHOA now Nola. I didn't recall anyone calling you a bad person. Why are you so darn defensive over a little constructive criticism? If you have such difficulty accepting constructive criticism, you will more than likely have difficulty improving your horsemanship skills on the ground and in the saddle. But this is America Nola. Land of the free. So I guess we are free to evaluate our own level of experience and expectations for ourselves and our equines. Your little Stormy is a very tolerant horse. She is more forgiving than you will ever know. Horses sacrifice their own comfort and well being at times for their handlers. Remember that.
Nola, you began this conversation about Stormy. A few knowledgeable people gave you their opinions and you took offense. One must be able to accept criticism as well as praise.
Best of luck to you and your horses.
Melissa
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Post by nrly on Jul 14, 2008 22:08:19 GMT -5
well reread some of them and that is what I walked away with telling me I am hurting her is also telling me I am bad, but you all have the right to your opinion, and i to mine, so let us stop here and agree to disagree alright.... No, for one thing I do respect those on this board who I know, and they are not the ones who told me I was hurting Stormy, or I do not know what I am doing or Flashy, I post here yes and I do take what people say to heart for I know this is one way of learning but did not you all learn how to be tact full, I sure did, I guess that is a dying breed..., but when someone tells me I am hurting my horse's, yes I get very defensive, and I always will, that is who I am, now when someone tell me what they think in a non rude manner I am not going to take them as jumping down my throat. Tact goes along way... and I am always learning from them and them from me We are a team.
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Post by nrly on Jul 14, 2008 22:12:11 GMT -5
SKYbar she was abused when we got her and we have had to do allot of work to get her where she is at right now, and Jim rides with our trainer who is where we are at every weekend, Jim rides Flashy or Stormy depends on Jim, and she knew what she was like (Flashy) before we got her and is amazed at how well she is responding to Jim and the love and respect she is receiving from both of us. So i do know that I am doing what is best for them and they show it and that is all I care about my horse's. so again let us stop this and agree to disagree...
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Post by dazzlingduns on Jul 15, 2008 5:35:04 GMT -5
Nola,
A picture is worth a thousand words.
Melissa
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Post by stormyranch on Jul 15, 2008 9:54:16 GMT -5
Nola,
Glad to hear everything checked out with Stormy.. I always thought it sounded like a lazy thing, not just a training issue!
Lisa
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Post by kimk on Jul 15, 2008 11:43:54 GMT -5
Nola,
I've been reading this thread and up til now have not been compelled to add my 2 cents worth. But Lisa's comment does compell me to do so. I can see where you would blame the falls on Stormy being lazy. She probably is.... she is grossly overweight, which I'm sure contributes to her laziness. However, laziness in itself is a training issue of it's own, and one cannot rightly separate the two completely.( Believe me, I have 3 stallions....the laziest creatures on gods green earth.) The fact that Stormy has fallen with a rider twice in 2 years is, well.... twice too many. All of us on this board care about you and Stormy and want to see you be successful, and SAFE! I'm glad that you do have a trainer to come help you. I would recommend going back to ground work with Stormy and try to get her to shed some pounds, and lighten and supple up and use her body correctly before asking her to from the saddle when she is so fat. I've been raising Kigers for 19 years now, and have had horses most of my life before that, and I still utilize trainers whenever possible or need arrises. I've come across my share of bad trainers as well....it is all a learning experience. Please do not feel that anyone who has posted about this is attacking you. they are not. they just want you and Stormy to be safe and successful.
Kim
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