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Post by Michelle Clarke on Jun 18, 2008 21:29:45 GMT -5
Diane, I have been invovled with Kigers for over 13 years now. I don't want to open a bees nest here, so lets just say our efforts in promoting the Kiger with the people we were first involved with was like banging our heads against the wall. I stayed far away from the message boards and politics of it all after I got the basic jist of the fighting and bickering among alot of owners, breeders and lets not forget the registries...
I only started in on the boards because I began to meet people that did not like the crap going on and shared alot of the same ideas and opinions I did in regards to the Kiger and promotion. The messages on the boards were all one-sided for the most part and anyone with any ideas different than the powers that be where shunned - which I feel has been stifleing for the Kigers from the word GO. I am very happy to see more serious people, not involved in the controversies, who are doing some great things with their Kigers and have some nice breeding programs going on.
I don't belive the wheel is being reinvented, just being more professionally presented overall in the breed - which is great to see!
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Post by Michelle Clarke on Jun 18, 2008 21:32:23 GMT -5
As far as the history on the Andalusian and the modern breeds here, the Andalusian people can't agree on it and are constantly arguing and fighting, so a few paragraphs surely does not explain the whole story....!
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Post by spanishsagegrullas on Jun 18, 2008 23:25:52 GMT -5
Michelle, I do know where you are coming from! I also will not go into public detail, but you would be appalled at the way people, etc, did their best to block anything I tried to do to promote Silver Bullet and the Kigers. I had heard similar tales. I, too, finally gave up on the "group effort" type thing.
However, obviously I stuck with it, and also convinced one who is quite active in the Kigers now to stick with it, when they were about to throw it all in, and not even promote Kigers, just mustangs. One learns to be pretty thick skinned, easy for me when it is something I am so committed to.
It also seems that people would rather stick with a well told, entertaining story about history relating to Kigers, genetics, and other sorts of things that agree with their own pre-concieved notions even if there are no facts to back it up, or it happens to help them tell a fetching story to prospective buyers, than learn more of the facts and science which should guide us in the preservation of this wonderful and happy instance of Kigers as a living archeology site, containing genes that might possibly be no longer present in the Country of Origin -- that being the Iberian peninsula.
In that tendency, the shunning of points of view that are different, and disregarding information that is newly revealed or discovered, even when they come from well researched, educated individuals who have spent decades trying to preserve the Kigers as they were originally discovered and honored, significantly hurts the Kiger.
A professional promotion based on facts, and proven performance ability and talents under saddle, will certainly go far in promoting this wonderful horse. Many kudos to those who are doing just that.
Diane P.
Spanish Sage Ranch
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Post by barbhorses on Jun 19, 2008 0:47:11 GMT -5
Hi Michelle,
I would agree with you. I was trying to just give a brief overview. The end result is still the same however, the PRE and PSL are modern.
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Post by angelsdream on Jun 23, 2008 14:00:32 GMT -5
Diane P.
Yes you make good points. I do know when I first became interested in kiger's, my view has changed now from what I originally thought. The kiger horse is still a magnificent horse to promote, I don't doubt that, it's just the "politics" and some of the people involved that really make it hard to determine the truth. Those that have been involved from the begining have a better understanding of the past and know what's been going on, but for the new comer's, you get hit with a lot of stuff that you have to weed thru and make your own decision.
There's a lot of passionate people involved, which is great because you do need that to help keep them in the public eye, but the fueding back and forth over registries makes it hard.
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Post by nrly on Jul 12, 2008 7:53:44 GMT -5
it is sad to read this and to know that people can not get along because this breed is what is suffering, but I guess all we can do is keep plugging away, and maybe one day something good will come from all the efforts of people like Michelle, and Diane P. and a few others. for me and my Kigers we are just waiting for Michelle to give us the word on her endeavor and we will do what we must to become a part of it... nola
As far as thick skin goes I wish I had that privilege, I have a very soft heart, and tend to take things to heart, when I am attacked or what ever i turn away and will not go back, because i do not need that in my life and it hurts. so to those who are thick skinned Kudos to you...
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Post by angelsdream on Aug 8, 2008 9:54:35 GMT -5
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Post by barbhorses on Aug 23, 2008 0:46:10 GMT -5
Yep, the PRE and PSL are very nice animals!  I have always admired them for their beauty ability. |
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Post by Chiron - Iberian Horse on Dec 8, 2008 17:51:27 GMT -5
Dianne, wish I could give you a correct answer....1912, 1950's, 1967 - all of these dates are thrown into the mix! I do know that there are lines of both Spanish and Lusitano lines that are very old and "pure". I know the Veiga line has had no new blood for over 135 years. The Bocado line is very old and "pure" too. I say pure loosely for many reasons, mainly because there is crossover of spanish and portuguese lines as they were the same horse per se. There are also a few Spanish breeders that have stayed true to Portuguese standards. Spains' horses were influenced by whomever was invading them at the time, so "pure" is a word that is kind of hard to use. There are so many theories and half truths that it is hard to even follow. There is also so many books from experts on the subject that I have not gotten through all of them to even begin to make sense! I even know of certain Lusitanos that have a Friesian in their background... Being new on this board, I will introduce myself with some short "fact and comment" on this topic. Lusitana and Andalusian horses, this is my topic in breeding and in research. There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about the iberian horses. In a nut's shell: most iberian horses disappeared in crossings with northern european horses after Napoleon entered the Iberian Peninsula and even more after horses were no longer required and desired in warfare. Around the beginning of the 20st century the Iberian horse breed (like many other breeds) went through some serious bottleneck. It appears that the monks of the Cartuja Monastery had about the last of what was left over from the Iberian horse the now famous Carthusian horses. They were however forced to give up their horse breeding and most of the breeding stock was went to the Zapata brother. The Zapata brothers, who were the owners of the Bocado brand (not the Carthusian monks !!) , crossed the Cartujano horses with their own breeding stock. Subsequently the most of the Zapata breeding-stock (that now included the Cartujano blood) and the Bocado brand were acquired by Don Vicente Romero e Garcia who extensively reported on the good results from crossing the Zapata breeding stock with his own. The Bocado Brand (which is an owners brandmark, not a certificate for lineage) has since been in different hands and virtually all Andalusian (PRE) and Lusitano (PSL) horses of today can be traced back to the breeding stock of the Zapatas and Don Vicente Romero e Garcia of around 1900. At about 1960 the Portuguese Studbook split off from the original joint (Spanish-Portuguese) Studbook. One important reason for the split was that the Spanish studbook would not register the Veiga horses. Veiga started as a a cross between Alter Real, Barb, Arabian and Spanish (Bocado line !) breeds. High inbreeding at the Veiga stud farm, to the extend that horses became sterile, required that Veiga had to resort to the introduction of new blood. This was chosen from the Andrade (a Lusitano line directly descending from the Spanish Bocado line !) breeding stock. The Andrade stallion Firme (son of Bocado line stallion Principe VIII) was introduced in the Veiga breeding stock and produced excellent horses like Novilheiro, Opus 72 and Orphee. (Veiga wasn't pure lineage for 136 years) Genetically it has been established that "all" of todays Andalusian (PRE - studbook) and Lusitano (PSL - studbook) horses descent from only a handful (maybe two ....) of horses from the Jerez de la Frontiers region in Andaluz in Spain and a couple of Arabian and Barb ancestors of who we know little about their origin. With respect to the Kiger Mustangs, if as it looks they originate from the Iberian horse they originate from ancestors of Iberian horses much further back in time then the above mentioned Iberian (Bocado, Veiga and Andrade) horses. On a personal note: for me, breeding back selected Lusitano horses to the kiger mustang would be most interesting. Ian |
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Post by Michelle Clarke on Dec 8, 2008 20:28:34 GMT -5
Ian, welcome on board! Thank you for your insightful post, lots of great info...I would be interested in your opinion on what type of Lusitano you think would cross well with the Kiger and for what reasons.
Was Firme the only Andrade stallion introduced to the Veiga line?
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Post by javaheadz on Oct 2, 2010 0:09:32 GMT -5
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Post by pepper on Oct 2, 2010 11:16:19 GMT -5
Hey Java...I just saw a pic of a 1/2 arab/Friesian on my endurance web site,that I at first had thought was a kiger.The horse was at Virgina 100(I think).Interesting...
We have a Lusitano now at my trainer's who moves with the slight rolling out flip to his stride that Amigo has also.Not a true "winging" like with the pasos but noticable.Migo & he look like cousins for sure tho he's leggier & a dapple grey...same up-hill build.
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Post by javaheadz on Oct 2, 2010 23:42:46 GMT -5
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Post by Michelle Clarke on Oct 3, 2010 10:37:05 GMT -5
Amadeus is a cutey! Are you comparing him with the half Kiger, Will, you have for sale? Amadeus is very drafty looking and Will's dam is a Nevada mare (which some Nevada horses look drafty - or at least can pass that on), so maybe you are not really comparing him to a full blooded Kiger; maybe some differences there?
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Post by kimk on Oct 3, 2010 11:06:40 GMT -5
Hey Michelle,
Wil's dam Mariah is a small 14h refined mare of sorraia type. She is registered in Hardy's Sorraia Mustang Studbook. No sign of draftiness there, nor in any of her offspring. Most all of her babies have had the type of gait like Pepper describes.
Kim
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I have always admired them for their beauty ability.
