Genetic Viability

[dunbnwild]

I emailed my concerns about the small release numbers to the BLM and I will copy the response I got- this statement worries me greatly: "If concerns with genetic variability are identified we can address them by moving similar animals into the HMA from other HMA’s that meet our management criteria."

I realize that on some level this is how the Kiger herds were first created, however there is a big difference in pulling a spanish looking dun horses off Beatty's Butte or Paisley and putting them into the Kiger herds now.

"Genetic Variability of the Kiger and Riddle HMA’s Concerns have surfaced concerning the genetic variability of the Kiger /
Riddle Herd Management Areas (HMA’s). While there are many opinions
concerning the minimum number of animals needed to ensure sufficient
genetic variability they are usually associated with isolated populations
of animals that are not managed as part of a larger population of animals.
The Kiger / Riddle HMA’s are managed by retaining or releasing the best
animals in the HMA following a gather. Hair samples are collected for
genetic testing at every gather. BLM is compiling baseline genetic data
for all HMA’s including the Kiger / Riddle HMA’s. If concerns with genetic
variability are identified we can address them by moving similar animals
into the HMA from other HMA’s that meet our management criteria.
Historically, in Oregon this has been done very successfully with our best
animals to ensure that genetic variability is conserved.


When the Wild Horse and Burro Act (WH&B Act) was passed in 1971 it mandated
that the BLM would manage wild horses and burros where they existed at the
time of the passage of the ACT. Establishment of the HMA’s was defined by
where they existed at the times the Act was passed. Appropriate management
level (AML) is determined through land use planning efforts that consider
multiple land uses in balance with the productive capacity of the range.
Some herds were established in areas that could not support a minimum
number of 100 or 150 herds. If horses are going to be managed in these
areas they need to be managed at these lower AML numbers to protect their
environment. The Bureau monitors genetic variability in all of the HMA’s
as a standard management practice. While we would also like some HMA’s to
be bigger we are bound by the WH&B Act and the constraints of the available
resources. This is an important part of protecting the health and well
being of the horses on the range. If problems arise due to smaller numbers
of animals in some HMA’s they can be addressed in the same manner that
created these herds, by moving horses from one HMA to another. This will
protect the genetic variability and maintain the production of superior
animals that are valued by the BLM and the public.




Gary McFadden
Wild Horse Specialist
State Lead
Oregon/Washington
541-573-4492

[Michelle Clarke]

I find it hard to believe they would even consider that when that is what caused so much trouble in the past - the whole "Found Horse" issue. It will bring down the value of the horses.

Not saying it can't happen...just saying it would not be the best idea. Another reason why it is so important to have good, solid breeding programs for the Kigers in private hands. While I love my crossbreds, I also want to have 2 or 3 lines of pure Kigers to preserve those original genes.

Another reason we need to form a Breeders/Owners Association The Lusitano breed FINALLY did it and it was long overdue.

[barbhorses]

If the BLM has been putting horses from Paisley and Beatty's Butte onto Kiger and vice versa (at least from what I understand), then I am not sure I understand what the problem would be if they did it again? After all, the Kiger was a population that found on Beatty's Butte and rounded up due to their color and light riding type.

I met the "found" horse Kiger Trinket in person and she didn't look any different than the other Kigers that were around her. Looks like a duck...

[Michelle Clarke]

Am I misinformed here but it was my understanding that when the genetic testing was done, it was also found that that they had their own unique dna unto themselves - making them their own breed to begin with.

And...the found horses were pulled out and adopted for a reason. BUT dare I say more and start another found horse discussion?!

[barbhorses]

I call Dr. Cothran consistently to ask questions and he has never said anything about the Kiger having their own unique DNA sequence. He did say that they have the same Spanish markers as any other Spanish influence American breeds (Quarter Horse, Morgan, etc), they have good genetic diversity, and that he cannot place where the Spanish influence came from (meaning that if it came straight from a Spanish horse or if the influence came from other Spanish influenced breeds). That is all he said to me about the Kiger.

He did find a genetic mutation that was unique unto a specific group on another HMA, but it wasn't the Kiger Mustang. I am sure you can guess which herd I am talking about, but I don't want to say anything else as I fear I will start yet another war on that topic...

[Michelle Clarke]

No offense, but I don't believe you would recall anything positive about the Kigers since your goal is promotion of the Sulphers as the oldest and purest. I would not expect you to be up on Kiger history.

[barbhorses]

Ok, I tried to get the history on the Kiger (how they came to be there, etc), and received no answers from Kiger people as they don't know themselves. I am not familiar with the Kigers on up to date information, but I am familiar with what was done in the past (ie how the Kiger was created) and I am up to speed on what their genetics say (via speaking with Dr. Cothran regularly). I think that not knowing whether or not the BLM is still taking horses from Kiger/Riddle and putting it those horses on different HMAs and then gathering up stock and putting it back on the Kiger/Riddle or putting new stock on Kiger/Riddle isn't really relevant in respects as to how they came to be. As far as genetic viability, Dr. Cothran has stated that it is at a good level. Not much changed from the 1993 report.

Of course I am promoting the Spanish type Sulphur. They are exactly what I want in a horse (that even the 2 year old Andalusian filly that I handled on Saturday couldn't touch). However, that doesn't mean that I don't want to be around other horses or continue to stay familiar with other breeds of horses.

I happily report on the Spanish type Sulphur that their genetics revealed them to be a true old Iberian horse. Why on earth would I hide that? It isn't as though I am sitting on this board and consistently shoving that in people's faces to be offensive. In fact, if you didn't say what you said above I wouldn't have even used the word Sulphur in this thread let alone mention specifics about the Spanish type Sulphur's genetics as we are talking about the Kiger here. Thus, I posted relevant information to the topic at hand. Clearly, you don't like the genetic report on the Kiger. I am sorry, but I cannot do anything about it to make the Kigers genetics seem more appealing to you. It is what it is. If you want to hear it from Dr. Cothran's own lips then I am more than happy to give you his phone number.

[ctxkiger]

I did some internet searches and reading. It appears to me that the BLM is more or less running a breeding program for the Kiger herds (but maybe I read misinformation). They know what horses are where and how long they have been there. So it does not appear to me that there is a great risk of in breeding etc for the Kigers. Seems to me that they are doing the best they can with the limited funds they have. It's not like they (blm) are getting rich adopting out horses for $125 or giving a $500 incentive for people to take the old ones. I know the Kigers bring more than that and what not. But, lets face the facts that horses breed yearly and have to be managed one way or another..............The entire horse business stinks right now and it's not going to get better any time soon. I would much rather the BLM do their job than have the horses starving like many are in private ownership. People should let the BLM do their job the best they can and stop whining so much (Cloud foundation). That is unless someone can buy up several thousand acres of land and volunteer that land exclussively for the herd (free of charge of course). Oh and of course pay a biologist to over see them..............................

[dunbnwild]

My understanding is that the Kiger herds were pretty much intact when they were discovered- yes they were part of a larger round up where not all those horses made "the cut", but it wasn't like they just picked and chose dun Spanish looking mustangs from here and there and put them together- yes, there were a few isolated incidents that were documented and corrected, by removing those animals. While most all can agree adding those animals was a mistake, the main issue was not so much with the BLM or the HMA animals but with THE REGISTRY registering "Found" horses from other HMA's that fit with the look of the Kigers and registering them as Kigers. So let's not confuse that with what the BLM is suggesting as their plan for genetic viability now.

I'm sure Dr. Conthran would not agree with your statement that just because something looks like a duck, means it is a duck. So, Kimberlee, the fact that you don't seem to think the Kiger is anything more than a dun mustang, is kind of irrelevant. You wouldn't be very happy if the BLM was putting other HMA horses onto the Sulphur HMA even though you've said yourself that the majority of the Sulphur herd doesn't even meet your requirement for what a "Pure Spanish Sulphur" is (or is it "California Vaquero Horse" this week?) So try not to sound so shocked that we DO care.

[DianneC]

The BLM will do what the BLM wants to do. Yes, reducing the stock to this number of horses can produce a lack of genetic variability. Good thing was that the original stock was pretty diverse. They've kind of "reset" the clock by putting back older stallions and that is good too for those older boys. I figured long ago that the BLM was not going to be the big source of quality Kigers and so am pleased to see so many good ones this time around. Last adoption was not that way but seems like they did a good job of cleaning house last time to get the ones we are seeing now.
I think someone counted up the found horses introduced over 15 years to the Kigers and came up with 12. Many were not left in long. Excess horses were tranferred to other HMAs to improve the adoptability of those herds. I was told by the BLM that some went to the Pryor Herd. There was talk way back in 2000 when I was told this that if the dun factor got weak that maybe some other horses could be added, Sulphurs were mentioned as they were great at that time, but not unless it became absolutely necessary. So this is nothing new that they are saying this.

[rubymountainkigers]

According to the original BLM documentation of the 27 horses that formed the core group that became the Kiger/Riddle horses 19 were from Beattys Butte, 6 were from Sheepshead and 2 were from Palomino Buttes. In addition, on 6-15-79 a black 3 yr old mare and a 8 year old buckskin mare were placed on Riddle. They were regathered 12-7-79 and returned to Riddle. On 12-14-79 a 4yr.old buckskin stallion, a 4yr old buckskin mare, a yearling buckskin filly, a 3 year old buckskin stallion and a 2 1/2 year old blue roan mare were gathered from Riddle HMA and returned. These are in addition to the 4 dun factored horses that were found on Riddle HMA when the horses were first added and left there. On 8-3-78 and 8-15-78 a 2 year old sorrel mare and a 3 year old sorrel mare were gathered from Palomino Buttes and placed on Smyth Creek HMA, which later became part of Kiger HMA. Other horses added from other HMAs include B-2651- Bay Stallion from South Steens placed on Smyth Creek (Kiger HMA) Dec 8, 1977; B-160 Sorrel Stallion from Palomino Butte, placed on Smyth Creek (Kiger HMA) 1978, issued freeze brand but never branded; B-161 Sorrel Stallion from Palomino Buttes placed on SmythCr. in 1978, issued freeze brand but never branded; 76040943 black mare from Sheepshead, placed on Riddle on 6-15-79, regathered and returned to Riddle 12-14-79; 71040943 buckskin mare from Sheepshead, placed on Riddle on 6-15-79, regathered and returned to Riddle 12-14-79; 700402032 buckskin stallion from Sand Springs, placed on Kiger October 1981; 81003031 dun mare from Sheepshead placed on Smyth Cr. May 1985;82006455 dun mare from Sheepshead placed on Kiger in 1988 along with colt (7052) and older daughter (6473). Re-released in 1990.

As far as horses from Paisley go as far as I know the only BLM records available show that these horses went to Paisley from Kiger/Riddle to begin with and were brought back and released. One that I am aware of, a mare, came back several years later and was adopted. The year they went to Paisley there was a drought and an emergency gather was done.

The request for "found" horses from members of KMA occurred Feb 6th 1992. BLM responded in an official letter March 1, 1992. In the letter BLM stated "The found horse lottery will be initiated when such animals arrive at the Burns District Wild Horse Corrals. These horses must possess the dun factor color and markings and have physical conformation similar to Kiger Mustangs and come from Herd Areas other than the Kiger or Riddle Herd Management Areas." The entire letter on official BLM letterhead is a little over a page long. It also includes the attachment of 2 pages of meeting notes from the BLM and KMA Meeting Minutes from the Feb 6, 1992 meeting. The found horse lotterry adoption was held in fiscal year 1993. On March 12,1994, KMA voted to close the registry to found horses. The "found" horses were required to pass inspection and reproduce a minimum number of Kiger type registerable foals to be eligible for registration in the KMA, originally. All were inspected and some did not pass. A few individuals were grandfathered in before they produced the minimum number of registerable foals. Overall the "found" horse period when the original "found" horses, not their offspring and offsprings offspring were registered constituted a very brief period of time.

If BLM were to move horses from one HMA to another the most logical and least controversial approach to begin with would be to move horses from Kiger to Riddle and vice versa. Then conduct genetic analysis to determine if genetic diversity was being maintained. If through genetic analysis it was determined that genetic variation was at risk or not being obtained then a process could be set up where horses from other HMA's in Oregon that were Kiger in type, ie had the physical characteristics of Kigers could be selected. Genetic testing could then be done on these horses to ascertain if they had Spanish markers similar to the original horses used to create the Kiger horses. If they did then these horses could then be released onto Kiger and Riddle HMAs to increase genetic health and diversity. It this method were followed any horses added to Kiger and Riddle would undergo stricter requirements to prove themselves to be of "Kiger type" than was undergone by the horses that were used to form the original herds.

[DianneC]

So 22 by the BLM record were added, mostly back in 1978-86, with the last being Teacup +2 in 1988. I recall that Smyth Creek was cleared of horses (5) before it was combined with East Kiger but whatever.

Here is part of a letter I received from E. Ron Harding on 2/4/04, keeping in mind that it was 16 years after Teacup, her dam and aunt were added and Ron was working from memory:

"There were only a few horses from other wild horse herds put into the Kiger and Riddle HMAs. Teacups mother and sister were two of them. There was four stallions from the Potholes which went into these herds. Three of them went to Riddle HMA and were removed before they became dominant. The other stallion went into the Smythe Creek side of the Kiger HMA. His name was Adolf and he sired two fillies and a horse colt that were put in Paisley HMA. When Adolf was returned to the range he was never seen again with any other horses. After his return, he was only seen for about 1 year and then
never seen again. I think he winter killed. .... After that, the public put the pressure on the BLM not to allow outside horses into the Kiger and Riddle Herd gene pools. I personally have kept track of the Kigers throughout the years and don't know of any horses be they strays or otherwise being allowed to enter the Kiger and Riddle Herds regardless of hearsay. All horses returned to the range for management purposes are a matter of record.

I will say that Teacup is a very typey little mare. She got her name
because her muzzle was so small she looked like she could drink out of a teacup."

E. Ron

The point here is not to bring up old debates about found horses, but assess the genetic viability of the wild herds. It will be interesting to hear what the hair samples gathered from this gather show. I've seen capture and release records that did show horses being moved back and forth from Kiger and Riddle. So that has been done.

[kimk]

The third and fourth numbers in a freeze brand is the processing location. Oregon's number was 00 until 1996 when they ran out of numbers and went to 01. I do have a listing in my files of the numbers used at each processing location. As far as I know the only numbers ever used in Burns are 00 and 01. I think that 04 might be a number used in Nevada.

One of the numbers he lists is 9 digits long, not 8.

There is absolutely NO way (without DNA) to know that "mare from Sheepshead placed on Kiger in 1988 along with colt (7052) and older daughter (6473)." Just because they looked alike and traveled together does not make it so.

The KMA discontinued registering "found" horses on Jan 1, 1995.

At one time there was a requirement for the "found" horses to produce a specific number of registrable foals but that was soon abandoned as it would take a ridiculous amount of time to prove a mare, and none of the offspring could be registered or sold as "Kiger" horses until the last one was a year old. As far as I know this process was never used to "prove" any registered "found" horse.

The BLM has been moving horses back and forth between Riddle and Kiger for years, that's not a new idea.

I'll ask my contacts at Davis, but last I heard, the experts (UK) were saying that the genetic Spanish markers found in wild herds was an overall showing of Spanish ancestry and not the way to determine if a particular horse is Spanish or not. (Due to the way these markers are, or are not, passed down.) They were saying, go by phenotype, not genotype.

Without digging in my files I can shoot a hole in about 50% of what he's said here.

Jul 19, 2011 13:28:12 GMT -5 rubymountainkigers said:

According to the original BLM documentation of the 27 horses that formed the core group that became the Kiger/Riddle horses 19 were from Beattys Butte, 6 were from Sheepshead and 2 were from Palomino Buttes. In addition, on 6-15-79 a black 3 yr old mare and a 8 year old buckskin mare were placed on Riddle. They were regathered 12-7-79 and returned to Riddle. On 12-14-79 a 4yr.old buckskin stallion, a 4yr old buckskin mare, a yearling buckskin filly, a 3 year old buckskin stallion and a 2 1/2 year old blue roan mare were gathered from Riddle HMA and returned. These are in addition to the 4 dun factored horses that were found on Riddle HMA when the horses were first added and left there. On 8-3-78 and 8-15-78 a 2 year old sorrel mare and a 3 year old sorrel mare were gathered from Palomino Buttes and placed on Smyth Creek HMA, which later became part of Kiger HMA. Other horses added from other HMAs include B-2651- Bay Stallion from South Steens placed on Smyth Creek (Kiger HMA) Dec 8, 1977; B-160 Sorrel Stallion from Palomino Butte, placed on Smyth Creek (Kiger HMA) 1978, issued freeze brand but never branded; B-161 Sorrel Stallion from Palomino Buttes placed on SmythCr. in 1978, issued freeze brand but never branded; 76040943 black mare from Sheepshead, placed on Riddle on 6-15-79, regathered and returned to Riddle 12-14-79; 71040943 buckskin mare from Sheepshead, placed on Riddle on 6-15-79, regathered and returned to Riddle 12-14-79; 700402032 buckskin stallion from Sand Springs, placed on Kiger October 1981; 81003031 dun mare from Sheepshead placed on Smyth Cr. May 1985;82006455 dun mare from Sheepshead placed on Kiger in 1988 along with colt (7052) and older daughter (6473). Re-released in 1990.

As far as horses from Paisley go as far as I know the only BLM records available show that these horses went to Paisley from Kiger/Riddle to begin with and were brought back and released. One that I am aware of, a mare, came back several years later and was adopted. The year they went to Paisley there was a drought and an emergency gather was done.

The request for "found" horses from members of KMA occurred Feb 6th 1992. BLM responded in an official letter March 1, 1992. In the letter BLM stated "The found horse lottery will be initiated when such animals arrive at the Burns District Wild Horse Corrals. These horses must possess the dun factor color and markings and have physical conformation similar to Kiger Mustangs and come from Herd Areas other than the Kiger or Riddle Herd Management Areas." The entire letter on official BLM letterhead is a little over a page long. It also includes the attachment of 2 pages of meeting notes from the BLM and KMA Meeting Minutes from the Feb 6, 1992 meeting. The found horse lotterry adoption was held in fiscal year 1993. On March 12,1994, KMA voted to close the registry to found horses. The "found" horses were required to pass inspection and reproduce a minimum number of Kiger type registerable foals to be eligible for registration in the KMA, originally. All were inspected and some did not pass. A few individuals were grandfathered in before they produced the minimum number of registerable foals. Overall the "found" horse period when the original "found" horses, not their offspring and offsprings offspring were registered constituted a very brief period of time.

If BLM were to move horses from one HMA to another the most logical and least controversial approach to begin with would be to move horses from Kiger to Riddle and vice versa. Then conduct genetic analysis to determine if genetic diversity was being maintained. If through genetic analysis it was determined that genetic variation was at risk or not being obtained then a process could be set up where horses from other HMA's in Oregon that were Kiger in type, ie had the physical characteristics of Kigers could be selected. Genetic testing could then be done on these horses to ascertain if they had Spanish markers similar to the original horses used to create the Kiger horses. If they did then these horses could then be released onto Kiger and Riddle HMAs to increase genetic health and diversity. It this method were followed any horses added to Kiger and Riddle would undergo stricter requirements to prove themselves to be of "Kiger type" than was undergone by the horses that were used to form the original herds.

[staceyinoregon]

You can try to shoot all the holes you want but the truth is still the truth and this information came directly from BLM files. Copies of all of this information should also be in KMA Historian files along with KMA meeting notes on the "found' horses . It used to be in there. It is not my intent to get into yet another "found" horse argument, merely to present the facts so that folks can make informed decisions.

You are correct with this statement "the experts (UK) were saying that the genetic Spanish markers found in wild herds was an overall showing of Spanish ancestry and not the way to determine if a particular horse is Spanish or not. (Due to the way these markers are, or are not, passed down.)" To date as far as I know there is no genetic test for whether or not a horse is a specific breed, However they can conduct genetic analysis to determine which geneotypes in a horses DNA clusters with the genotpes in other groups (ie breeds) that horses DNA is closest to. The definition of a breed is that the animals breed true ( this would be influenced by genotype) to type and are physically similar ( phenotype). This cluster analysis is what was used with the DNA analysis of the original blood samples from the horses that formed the Kigers that was the bais of determining that they were Iberian type horses.

I didn't say that moving horses from Kiger to Riddle and vice versa was a new idea. I said it would probably be the most effective and least controversial place to start. Then if through effectiveness monitoring it was found that genetic diversity was being maintained then the concern would have been adequately addressed. If not then some other options would need to be explored if it was an objective to increase genetic diversity in the herds. These options could include bringing in animals of similar phenotype from outside groups ( I still think a person would want to conduct genotypical analysis as well) or increase the minimum population size. The minimum population size is something that has been discussed as it relates to small range populations by conservation geneticists for several years now. If a person is interested in knowing more about it they should look up the publications of Soule, who is the first conservation geneticist to define minimum population size for genetic viability.

[kimk]

so, is this Stacy talking, or Tim? I didn't recall replying to a post from Stacy. In fact I don't recall seeing any previous posts on this thread from Stacy. How would you know what would, should, or used to be in the KMA historian files? Hmmm?

Truth is relative. Whose truth?? I cannot imagine the BLM files would contain that many incorrect freezemark numbers regarding that particular group of horses.

Just because someone worked for the BLM at one time, or not, and has access to the records, even through public disclosure, doesn't mean that it has been repeated or interpreted correctly. It is not necessarily the gospel truth, just because a certain someone posted it on this messsage board.
Ctxkiger said it well: I would much rather the BLM do their job than have the horses starving like many are in private ownership.

I don't doubt that the Kiger herds currently have sustainable genetic diversity, but it will be interesting to see.

Jul 26, 2011 14:17:13 GMT -5 staceyinoregon said:

You can try to shoot all the holes you want but the truth is still the truth and this information came directly from BLM files. Copies of all of this information should also be in KMA Historian files along with KMA meeting notes on the "found' horses . It used to be in there. It is not my intent to get into yet another "found" horse argument, merely to present the facts so that folks can make informed decisions.

You are correct with this statement "the experts (UK) were saying that the genetic Spanish markers found in wild herds was an overall showing of Spanish ancestry and not the way to determine if a particular horse is Spanish or not. (Due to the way these markers are, or are not, passed down.)" To date as far as I know there is no genetic test for whether or not a horse is a specific breed, However they can conduct genetic analysis to determine which geneotypes in a horses DNA clusters with the genotpes in other groups (ie breeds) that horses DNA is closest to. The definition of a breed is that the animals breed true ( this would be influenced by genotype) to type and are physically similar ( phenotype). This cluster analysis is what was used with the DNA analysis of the original blood samples from the horses that formed the Kigers that was the bais of determining that they were Iberian type horses.

I didn't say that moving horses from Kiger to Riddle and vice versa was a new idea. I said it would probably be the most effective and least controversial place to start. Then if through effectiveness monitoring it was found that genetic diversity was being maintained then the concern would have been adequately addressed. If not then some other options would need to be explored if it was an objective to increase genetic diversity in the herds. These options could include bringing in animals of similar phenotype from outside groups ( I still think a person would want to conduct genotypical analysis as well) or increase the minimum population size. The minimum population size is something that has been discussed as it relates to small range populations by conservation geneticists for several years now. If a person is interested in knowing more about it they should look up the publications of Soule, who is the first conservation geneticist to define minimum population size for genetic viability.