Kiger quality

[sbutter]

I was going through old registry threads on this board to see what was going on in the past and if anything has changed at all. This economy has really made people the horse business take a plunge and anyone involved in it has had to take a good hard look at what is being produced and if there is a demand for it. So, it started to get me to think about the survival of the kiger breed and what needs to get done. There are so many angles to look at it and feel free to add in some other points, but here are a few that have been bouncing around my head.

The definition of what a kiger is can vary from circle to circle, but I will look at some general common denominators.

The purpose of a kiger:
A kiger is an all around, versatile horse. A lot of kigers have been “unproven” due to never being broke to ride or never pushed to their full potential. For a horse to survive in this market, they have to have a “resume” to go with the job title. If kigers really start getting out there and show what they are made of, who is going to keep track of all the information? Usually, registries step into this role. Due to disagreements on the inside of registries, we have to break this problem down further.

How will the registries insure that the kigers we have now are the same ones 100 years from now? I know that the idea is, with careful breeding, the breed should be better than what it was 100 years ago. But, what keeps the breed from changing into something “different”? Morgans come to mind when I think of this dilemma. At the last Horse Expo, I thought that all the Morgans in the breed parade had to be crossbreds, because they looked nothing like the Morgans that I remembered. So, what will keep kigers from this fate?

Logically, if a TB horse is bred to a TB, then the baby is also a TB. The Jockey Club will automatically register a TB foal as long as both its parents are registered. So, I started to look at the pros and cons to that approach for kigers. It seems like a fair approach, but if that is the only qualification that needs to be met, it will be detrimental in the long haul. The reason being is, the purpose of the horse and how quality is maintained. With TBs, their (mostly) sole purpose is to race. Every TB foal is aimed to go to the track and if they don’t get there or don’t do well (for the most part) they will not be reproduced. This comes from a business stand point. If the horse isn’t allowed to or shows that it can’t serve its “purpose” then it is not reproduced. It automatically has a lesser value than all of its comrades. This is how the TB horse has maintained its integrity and has stuck to being the “same” horse it was 100 years ago. So, how do kigers maintain their quality/ keep the same purpose? We have to compare their origins and then how man will maintain the integrity when they take over. Living in the wild has made the kigers tough, because the weak die and the strong propagate. So, how does man maintain a similar rigid standpoint? The wild has no emotional attachment to these precious horses, so its “purpose” for them is always fulfilled. We, on the other hand, do get attached to our horses and it can make some decisions tough or we see our horses with rose colored glasses. We have to fight our subjective tendencies and try to maintain an objective role in a breeding program. Case in point- many, many TB breeders love to keep the daughter of their favorite mare and try to breed her, even if she has done nothing to prove her merit as a broodmare. There may be nothing “physically” wrong with her, but she just never fulfilled her purpose. TB breeders can also be notorious for breeding anything with 4 legs and a head, just because it is there and they want to take a “chance” on it. The majority of the time, these people lose a lot of money. So, back to kigers… A lot of breeding has gone on for sheer profit at quality’s expense (this market will allow that no longer) or it was a very “pretty” horse . How will kigers legitimately fulfill their purpose in a format where we can compare their quality? The only “official” kiger show that I know of is Kigerfest, but that is in a rather poor state right now. Outside of that, there is no venue for kigers to compete against each other on a big scale. This creates quite a predicament, because how will kigers maintain their purpose in a format that allows us to focus on the best and breed the best? Right now, everything is up to a person’s personal opinions. There is no “official” ruler to grade our kigers off of. Without some kind of inspection or merit process, our kigers will lose their “form” for the next generations, because we have not been able to properly maintain their purpose like the wild has.

If we (or registries) do aim for kiger shows, it will be a long hard process to really get solidified into a strong format. This is to not say that it is a bad idea, but who has the money and the time to get these huge shows together for breeders to aim their top quality horses to? I know registries are struggling right now, so if that was our only option, we would have to have an outside group of people willing to invest their time and money into it. But…there is another option that can take effect faster.

It wouldn’t be easy, but an inspection process would be a third option. I already have a good idea of all the “issues” that come up with it, but it seems like the only legitimate option to keep the integrity of the breed alive for further generations. The hard part will be setting personal opinions aside and looking at facts on conformation and movement. It doesn’t have to be geared to a certain discipline, but it should cater to a good “middle ground” of a usable, versatile horse. The major goal of the inspections should be to maintain the form and function of the horse. To me, color is a self correcting “issue.” Between a bay and a dun horse of the same caliber, the dun horse will sell for more, because it is unusual. Breeders will automatically aim for this. I know color has been a major factor in kiger promotion, but I feel like form and function has taken a back seat to it in years past. Just looking at a horse’s conformation will not prove whether a horse actually fulfills its purpose. It can give you an idea of what the horse is capable of, but I have seen a lot of “perfect” TBs that could not race for their life. The point of looking at conformation is to identify what breed of horse it is and how well it may perform at certain tasks. So, looking at pictures of horses will not really cut it either. The inspection process has to be more thorough than that.


Phew! I will stop myself there, but this has been a predicament that has been going around my head for a while. Feel free to add anything, but I want to get an idea of what is going on in other kiger folks’ minds in this climate.

[Michelle Clarke]

As usual, these are all valid points and ones that have been looked at and discussed quite a bit. Let me give you the bottom line.

There was and still is too much decention in the Kiger breed; no one wants to play nice together, everyone has a different idea of what the breed should or should not be and lastly, the majority of the breed has been in the hands of people who are just trying to make a buck (at any expense or lack thereof) and people who do not have the money or where with all to promote the Kigers as they should be.

Honestly, I have tried time and time again to get a group of Kiger folks together and do something. I have worked on Kiger Quest over and over and can't get support (except from a few dedicated individuals, which I appreciate) and have even tried to start a Kiger Sport Horse registry...to no evail. I hesitate to begin this whole thing again until the economy picks up and we have some serious people ready to go, but I'll be the first to jump aboard and support it any way I can.

I wholeheartedly agree that breeds that just allow foals to be registered because they come from two registered parents is flawded. Agian, an inspection should be in place (a real one). However, we are back to the same song and dance that the Breed Standards are not the same in each registry and that some of the terminology used actually would be considered faults in any breed - except Kigers.

The Kiger hardly needs a new registry. However, one that handles it right would be a blessing. One that has a realisitic Breed Standard is needed. One that is actually Spanish would be really nice. The color thing would take care of itself, you're right again there. It pisses me off to no end that I can't register my "grey" Kigers with some of the registries when the mare they came from is a registered "claybank", a rare colored Kiger - which we all know turned out to be slow greying horses. A bunch of crap if you ask me.

One of the reasons I began crossbreeding with type in mind, honestly, because I could not find a good amount of Kigers to breed the type I wanted and could market. Consistancy in the Kiger breed is needed, but again, you have some that are more western type and some that are more english/dressage type (even though all are versatile). The Breed Standard needs to reflect a Spanish type horse, but also a saddle horse, meaning one that is conformationally built to carry a saddle and rider well and be usable.

Well, more later - I've got a big day today and need to get outside.

[spanishsagegrullas]

I just wanted to pop in here and say a few things. I usually will take some time to draft a response, but I have been busy and must admit, I wonder just how much people are reading and discussing these things because they really want an educated, well considered discussion, or just like to read controversy. I also admit I have not read Sarah's post thoroughly.

I do want to say that I agree that the Kiger registries do not have a Breed Standard that reflects the horse that intially was found, and is to be preserved. This relates to why Sponenberg does not consider Kigers of the present to be a Colonial Spanish strain, altho via personal email he has told me that he did consider them such in the type that they were first found.

I am trying to propose some modifications to KMA's breed standard and inspection process to bring it more in line with the Iberian horse standards, recogniziing of course that Kigers are neither Lusitanos, PREs, nor Sorraias. KMA is the oldest registry, and in reading old, original minutes of that association, I am convinced that in the beginning, KMA was interested in maintaining the original conformational type of Kiger. That seems to have changed as times have changed, and perhaps there are members making decisions that do not fully understand the history and orginal conformation of the Kigers of the late 1970's and early 1980's, and that has had a detrimental effect on maintaining an Iberian standard.

A while ago I drafted a long post on KMA's public message board titled "Kigers as a type of horse" which I would love it if people would read. Recently, the KMA public board was wiped clean, attributed to an error on the part of the webmaster. I have yet had time to find the post, which I also put on the member board, and repost it on the public board. I may do that soon. I did post on here a while ago, and I would repeat again, and will repeat on the Cross registration thread, that people read Hardy Oelke's well-researched paper called "Spanish Ancestry?" via his SMS link which I believe is www.spanish-mustang.org Please also note that I recently read that the spanish word "orejana" meant unbranded and running loose, and it struck me that local scuttlebutt had it, before the spanish type horses were found in Beattys Butte, that according to old timers in Harney County, they said that if any of the famed spanish mustangs existed, they might be found on the "Orianna rim" (maybe related to Orianna Canyon) in Beattys Butte.


As for the grey, I repeat that the reason grey is not accepted is due to genetics -- a homozygous grey horse will only produce grey, and one of the standards of Kigers is that they carry the dun gene, which, whether you agree or not, was considered a sign of linkage to the primitive type of horse.

There is so much new information regarding genetics that I think those in the registries are overwhelmed with people asking them to make exceptions or changing their restrictions, and they don't really understand the genetics behind all of this so its easier not to make changes.

If you have a grey Kiger that you think is absolutely superb, and that the Kiger genepool will be seriously missing out without those genes, my first suggestion would be to have it tested to see if it is homozygous or heterozygous for the grey gene. If it is heterozygous, just sit tight and wait to see what happens with the Kiger registries.

Diane P.
Spanish Sage Ranch

[prizmbluekigers]

I have to ask, even at the risk of sounding silly, but if we test the genetics of Kigers what other breeds if any are also documented in the test? My husband asked me last night what a Kiger would be if it did not have a Spanish marker (s). Have we ever found Kigers who when tested do not show a Spanish marker? I don't want to debate as to whether they are horses with traces of spanish breeds or if they are horses descended from Spanish stock. That seems to just be semantics to me. So we have a breed or genotype with links to Spanish horses, but how Spanish are they? Do we see more than one marker meaning different types of Spanish heritage? It is documented that Thoroughbreds and Standardbreds were taken into Southeastern oregon. The Miller and Lux Cattle Company brought in horses to breed so how much of those bloodlines carry forth in mustangs from the Burns area? The Pete French vacqueros are said to have brought Spanish horses with them and I have documentation that French sent "Spanish type" horses back to California because they had good traits and were desired so how much Spanish blood are we really talking about here? We are still doing research on the documentary.

As to showing Kigers... There is of course Kigerfest which is not always convenient for some, so what about trying to place some Kiger classes at some other shows. The Wild Horse and Burrro show held yearly is for stock directly from the wild, no domestic bred stock is allowed BUT would anyone come for Kiger classes? Would we be willing to include part Kigers in some of the classes at least? Maybe Lisa Sink has some thoughts on whether or not we could place classes in that show. What about County Fairs? I know there are many of us who have freeze-branded stock and domestic born stock so we should offer something for full and part Kigers right? The part Kigers might not be able to compete in "breed classes" but trail, equitation and pleasure classes could be offered.
We don't seem organized enough to offer much in the way of incentives and without a registry behind the efforts would the classes be appealing and valid enough to draw Kiger folk? I want to read what Diane P. drafted if she will post it again.. Can we establish breed standards that include movement and confirmation?
Can we include the requirement that to be registered as a Kiger a Spanish marker needs to be present? Would that help to include "greybanks"? Could we agree on what the movement standard should be? How would we inspect as we are spread out across the country? Who chooses inspectors? If we get bogged down again in what the standards should be we will get nowhere but I would be willing to help with things in Central Oregon. I am one of the group who has horses who do not have a performance history (finances dictate my participation totally) but I hope to show locally this year with my gelding and one of the fillies. Yikes, I ran on but each time we have a discussion involving breed standards my mind races.

[dunbnwild]

I was talking to a horsey friend about some of the issues with Kigers and how I feel like comparing Kiger promotion or registries in any way shape or form to QH, TB, Morgans, or whatever is unrealistic because we have so few Kigers... etc... etc... and she brought up a breed called Cleveland Bays. Super rare, but one of the oldest breeds, they also have the color issue.

She said that stallions must meet certain criteria and that mares are put into different categories as well to help with diversity as well as quality. Here's a little overview of their "SPARKS" Single Population Analysis & Record Keeping System system:

www.clevelandbay.org/the-breed/research-a-dna/346-how-many-cleveland-bays-are-in-the-2010-sparks-breeding-population.html

At any rate, I don't know much about it or if something like this would benefit the Kiger--but I do think that if we talk about registry reform we need to look at other registries that are dealing with similar issues.

[barbhorses]

For your genetic questions, I would go straight to the source.

E. Gus Cothran, Ph.D.
Animal Genetics Lab.
VIBS, CVM
Texas A&M University
TAMU 4458
College Station, TX 77843-4458
[phone]

[e-mail]

I have spent hours on the phone with Dr. Cothran and he has always been very open and honest with me. Don't be nervous or afraid to call. He is always willing to clear up any misinformation on his genetic studies as well as better being able to explain the importance of Spanish markers and mtDNA. mtDNA isn't everything. Arabians have been found to have the D genotype! That means that they would have Iberian/Barb background. That doesn't make the Arab a Spanish horse though. The same thing goes with discovering that the Quarter Horse has Spanish markers. That doesn't make them Spanish though. Very complicated stuff! In genetics, you must always piece it together with history and conformation of the horse you are looking at. The example above is why mtDNA is not useful in identifying a breed. mtDNA is useful in determining lines in breeds and documenting the travel of horses throughout the ages. However, one must be careful to not use mtDNA in identifying a breed of horse. The documentation of some Arabs displaying the Iberian/Barb mtDNA pattern proves why mtDNA cannot be used in identifying a breed of horse.

[DianneC]

The Cleveland Bay site was interesting. It would be very valuable to find how related our horses are in a similar survey, although I don't know how many people are doing genetic testing on their horses.
I really like the use of "old genes" in breeding. Its one reason that I used Chinook. The other was that he was not related to Steens Kiger line horses. It used to be that everyone who had a Kiger from the wild bred it. That's ended thankfully, but we can't count on horses from the wild any longer unless Ron Harding is allowed to select those turned back. Without quality coming out of the wild it will be difficult to maintain the breed in this economy. People in the breed up to this point were, frankly, poor for the most part and unwilling to put money into their horses. The last Kiger Fest I went to there was a breeder with a horse that had just been pulled out of the pasture with overgrown feet.
Truthsayer's Sun has been doing really well in the open shows he's been in. Registering in ABRA opens a lot of shows too. We've come a long way in getting people to recognize the breed, and selling them is not that hard. People are willing to pay pretty well even now for a quality horse with good training. But I do worry about the future of the breed.

[spanishsagegrullas]

I would like everyone to put on their thinking caps and consider what I am going to say:

Kimberlee Jones aka Barbhorses has always, and will always, fall back on Dr. Cothran and his study in attempts to substantiate what she says.

The following is my opinion: I do not put much reliance on Dr. Cothran, what he says, or any of his studies. This is because for his study that includes Kigers, back in the late 1990s that Kim quotes so much, and the associated dendogram which she purports to indicate that Kigers are closer to Quarter Horses and Morgans than the Iberian breeds, has never been peer reviewed, the techique and conclusions never critically evaluated by other geneticists.

The study has never been published, nor ever cited by any other credible geneticists, nor have any other credible geneticists used such a technique to purport to claim an ability to deem mixture of breeds in an animal. I would like Kimberlee to point to the same technique and ability in other papers, for horses or other species, by other researchers. I know of none. I have asked Dr. Cothran for a copy of this study, and a summary of his data, indicating that I have education in genetics, population genetics, and conservation biology which also relates to island biogeography, or how genetics change or become similar when there are pockets (islands) of different species so that I can review it with those principles in mind. He has ignored my request.

Further, one must remember that both Quarter Horses and Morgan Horses are breeds created in the Americas, and perhaps it is not that these breeds were a source to the Kigers of whatever the study is looking for, but that the Kigers were a source to these breeds. Additionally, if memory serves me correctly, Kigers were indeed included in Iberian/Spanish breed groups such as Paso Finos and Criollos. Surely these breeds cannot be said not to be Spanish in type.

I have also asked respected geneticists about him and his technique, and despite my request for information as to Dr. Cothran's reputation asked in several different ways, the question goes unanswered.

Further, if one does an internet search regarding the "spanish genetics" of any number of Colonial Spanish horses, you will find that Dr. Cothran has been involved in all of them, and always concludes that the horses in question have Spanish Markers and are therefore important Spanish Colonial horses.

Dr. Cothran is well equipped and knowledgeable about determining what sort of genetic loss may be happenning in a given herd, and that is what BLM has primarily enlisted him for. Such information is quite useful. But the living he has made on claims relating to "spanish markers" seems to be his real bread and butter, and these are primarily marketted to groups of individuals to whom he is the expert, and have no education of their own regarding genetics and genetic studies.

The only person who has ever claimed that their studies can identify a breed in a horse is Dr. Cothran.

I have exhaustingly said, and Hardy Oelke has exhaustingly said, the mtDNA studies have never claimed to identify a breed of horse. It has constantly been discussed in terms of ANCESTRY.

In genetics, you must always piece it together with history and conformation of the horse you are looking at.

This is and has always been true with regard to the Kigers, and the breed's claim to be of quality, relatively undiluted Iberian descent. Why else would there be attempts to have a breed standard, and why else would Ron Harding have done all of his reading, discussing, and searching for the legendary Spanish Mustang, finally following a lead to Beatys Butte, if these were not of primary consideration? Please remember that Kigers were found, and considered worthy of preservation, long before any genetic tests were done.

Bobbe, if you have questions that I can help you answer, or send you to the right place to find the answers, feel free to email me.

Diane P.
Spanish Sage Ranch

[fantasykiger]

to old, to tired, to debate the quality of my horses anymore. I am with alot of other Kiger Mustang owners I know been there, done that.

[sbutter]

I know the biggest problem with the breed is the people, but I don’t want to give up on the breed just because of dissent among the breeders/owners, etc. The climate has changed, so I wanted to see if the situation has become more malleable. I wanted to see how other people were evaluating this situation and what can be done. It seems like a lot of people are getting out of the horse business and kigers are no exception. We need a good foundation for this breed and I believe the best time to develop it is when the breed is made up of the few dedicated breeders. Granted, I don’t mean it in the sense that once we “eliminate” the competition, we can make the breed whatever we want. I feel like this situation can be a refining time as the dross is separated from what is good. I also know that these topics have been covered for years and years, but these are the foundational issues. I don’t want to give up on them, just because the popular majority didn’t like it in the past. If we don’t work for a good foundation, then this breed is doomed to mediocrity or worse for the next generations. These issues will keep persisting until we stop putting band aids on them and actually look for the answer to the symptoms. Its like a human body, you can try to ignore the symptom or treat the symptom, but it will never be cured until you actually treat the cause of the symptom. So, what are we passing on to the next generation? Are we just passing on issues or are we giving them a good foundation to work off of? I don’t want this to turn into a debate, but I would like it to be a discussion where everyone is willing to come and learn something from each other. All of the issues can be broken down into baby steps, so we can at least see where the differences stem from.

I do think having shows would be a great idea for promoting kigers, but to retain the breed integrity, you would have to have some shows specifically designed to compare apples to apples with kigers. Basically a show that can break down the kiger’s performance into different categories, so you can have an in depth look of the horse’s strengths and weaknesses. Plus, it would be nice to have professional riders in that type of show that know how to show off the horse’s best. You don’t want the horse to be unfairly evaluated because of the rider’s errors.

As far as an inspection goes, it can start off very basic. The first layer can just evaluate a “usable” horse conformation (basically all the common denominators in working horse breeds). This would help insure that the kigers retain a good versatile type that make up a good riding horse. As we go into a deeper evaluation, we will need to make sure that we retain a good Spanish type. I know good “Spanish conformation” can vary from circle to circle, but it would be nice if we could nail down the different “philosophies” to one spot and compare them. This would be an educational tool so everyone can compare the differences and understand the “why” instead of parroting what they heard someone say. People need to understand the function of each conformation type and why the supporters believe that it is “Spanish.” All of this can help eliminate people’s unsupported opinions and stack them up against what facts are actually known. I feel like there are good books out there that probably cover all of this, but most of the general public don’t know where to look.

We now live in a world full of great technology, so we can easily use it in inspections. Trying to have the breeders of the horses video tape their horses is just too hard. First off, they may have no idea what the inspectors are looking for and what angles to set the horse up in. Secondly, a lot of people just don’t know how to properly work a camera/ video camera and get it edited properly. Live inspections are just too hard to do for people that are far away. All you really need is one person that knows how to “set up” the horse and video record it. That person would be the “middle” so the horse can be recorded and put into a format so all the inspectors could see. They themselves would know exactly what the inspectors are looking for and would produce a good quality video to be viewed. I would still prefer a live inspection, but it would at least help solve the distance issue. You would want it to be efficient so that the person doesn’t have to go back to the same area repeated times to get videos of different horses. So, it would take some planning to find out what horses are in the area and if they all want to be inspected.

[barbhorses]

Tiffany, no personal attack was made against the Kiger. So, there is no need for you to defend your horses.

Diane, I just got off the phone with Dr. Cothran and he stated that the Kiger Spanish markers are the same ones that the QH and Morgan has (among other Light Riding horses that have Spanish influence). He is not sure if the Kiger got it from those horses being turned loose (which we know happened frequently along with TB horses) or if they got it from an actual Spanish horse ancestor. This is why they were placed in the Light Riding breed group and not the Iberian breed group (this dendrogram looks over all of the Spanish markers and does not include mtDNA). He also said that nobody has called him yet (spoke to him at nearly 1pm pacific time). I wish you all would call the expert and not rely on second or third hand information! If you want the answers, talk to the expert! He is more than willing to explain the study so that you can understand it.

I requested to him that he send me over his Kiger report and he said that he would in a PDF file. As soon as I get it, I will be sure to post it as nobody here seems to have it or are unwilling to post it.

Again, Diane you are using mtDNA incorrectly. You are using it to identify ancestry (aka whom they are related to by breeds). mtDNA can only be used to identify maternal lines in a breed or understand domestic horse migration. Once again, there are some Arabs that show the Iberian/Barb genotype, but that does make them Iberian. As Michelle mentioned earlier, you can have a 99.9% draft type horse with the Iberian/Barb mtDNA pattern. Or what did she say? The sire could be a fish and you wouldn't know it! lol

There is no need to get defensive at me. I am just the messenger. I am not the expert and that was not my study. I like to think we are all amateur geneticists. The student shouldn't be asking another student for a definitive answer, not when they have the expert (teacher) willing to help them out!

Also, I want to point out once again that my comments were asked for in a question. So, I am not posting this as a bashing or a slam (as they are the opinions of the expert. I am just relaying them).

[spanishsagegrullas]

This is in reply to Kimberlee Jones' most recent post:

Kimberlee, it is clear that you do not understand the meaning of the word "ancestry" so here it is:

Main Entry: an·ces·try
Pronunciation: \ˈan-ˌses-trç\
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
1 : line of descent : lineage; especially : honorable, noble, or aristocratic descent
2 : persons initiating or comprising a line of descent : ancestors

Since you do not even understand what that means, when it's just plain english, how can anyone believe you understand any genetic report that you claim to be interpreting and explaining to others? Or relaying the opinions of your "expert" properly?

Secondly, there are NO, let me repeat NO factual, documented introductions of either modern day Quarter Horse or Thoroughbred horses into the wild herds in or near Kiger, Riddle, or Beattys Butte. That is just hooey, rumors spread by people who seem hell bent on coming up with anything that they think innocent people will believe in order to disparage the Kiger. It is not possible that introduction of one or even several horses could have such an overall genetic effect to all the horses in Kiger and Riddle that it would be a ubiquitous finding, even if it were true.

Once again, people, use your common sense and don't believe what some people try to get you to think, if, when you follow their speculation to its normal, logical conclusion, it makes no sense. Even if it is said by a so-called "expert" or their self-appointed mouthpiece.

Finally, I will repeat what I said in my initial post -- I am not certain people reading and posting in these types of threads want an educated, well-reasoned discussion, or are just interested in controversy.

Diane P.
Spanish Sage Ranch

[barbhorses]

Diane, there is absolutely no reason to become high nosed and snotty. A calm and mature response just like everyone else on this thread has done would be nice.

Would you please list your historical documents that state there has been no introductions of QH, Morgan, Arab, etc near the Kiger and Riddle HMA. Also, once again, if you have a problem with Dr. Cothran's genetic report then why don't you pick up the phone and call him. As I said before, those are HIS OPINIONS from looking at the Kigers genetics! Once again, I did not do the study. Those are not my findings as I am not geneticist and neither are you.

So why don't you get off of your high horse and make some non-hostile remarks to keep this thread civil.

I also don't see the need for you to continuously state my name. People here well know who I am unless they are new. Would you care for my middle name as well?

[spanishsagegrullas]

One final thing. I did want to repost something that Judy Yancey posted on the Chronicle of the Horse forum when this same claim was made based on word-of-mouth interpretations of the Cothran study. Please note that her response was posted in 2005, which gives you an idea how long we have exasperatingly been trying to stop this misinformation. And I did check the link, and the study is still there:

#222
Sep. 21, 2005, 04:10 AM
JY
Training Level Join Date: Feb. 8, 2005
Location: Florida
Posts: 92


Please forgive my short "hijacking" of this thread for just a moment of clarification.....I was not aware of the thread until a friend sent me the link....because of the somewhat misconstrued information that was set forth about the Kiger mustangs. I am an avid fan of the Kiger and have been breeding top quality Kigers since 1999. As you may know, I have also been breeding warmbloods (especially from the Oldenburg region) since 1975. My Kigers are no less stunning and they captivate most visitors to the farm. I have sold most to my warmblood clients!Anyway...the comments about the breed being rife with QH blood cannot go unanswered, because that is far from the realities of the DNA testing that has been done. If anyone cares, there is a full report of that testing at: www.kigers.com/smkr/cothran.html As you can see on the report, the Kiger has a higher degree of genetic similarity to the Criollo, Campolina, and Peruvian Paso than it does to the Quarter Horse. All breeds will show some similarity to other breeds because no breed is so pure that it is distinct within itself. Not even the Andy. And lest we forget, the QH was grounded in spanish mustang blood, so we should expect to see similarity there!
Cothran seems to cater to whatever crowd he is speaking to at times, but his report speaks for itself...If you look at the bottom table you can see that the Kigers as a specific group had the highest percentage of genetic similarity to spanish breeds of any mustang group he tested back in 1991 (this was before he tested the Sulphur herd)

There is no such thing as a "pure" Spanish horse, pure mustang, et all.
As for Kiger purity, they are as pure as any feral herd can be, in that they have been strictly isolated for the last 28 years, and having had a large degree of natural isolation prior to that. The have a sizable degree of Spanish influence, as indicated by Cothran's study. I do not know if the University of Kentucky has done research on the SMR's...I haven't seen any but I bet if such a study has been done, the results would not be markedly different. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to think that the purity of the blood of the Kiger is "suspect"...it is certainly no more "suspect" than the "purity" of the horses with the Spanish Mustang Registry, which are predominantly offspring of horses Brislawn gathered many many years ago from all over the U.S.
A fellow Kiger breed wrote this to me: "It is interesting to know that we have the proof and can support our claims that the Kigers have a strong Spanish influence...because they DO. But thank God their blood markers are not ALL that they are about!"
I love my Kigers, as anyone who knows me can attest!

More food for thought.

Diane P.

[DianneC]

Sarah, I think having people who knew how to video tape could easily capture what was needed for inspection. That's a great idea. Nice thing too is that more Kigers are actually halter broke and can be taught to trot in hand, that would have been an issue 10 years ago.