Last chance for Rio Canyon

[barbhorses]

I don't have much to contribute to this thread as far as Rio goes as I do not know what the ideal type is for a Kiger. So, I will leave that discussion to Kiger people.

Dianne, I am so sorry about your dad. My father (who was the best dad anyone could have asked for) suddenly passed away in Nov. 2007. You are not alone. *hugs*

Diane P. You are incorrect about the mtDNA. The Sorraia's is not the original Iberian mtDNA nor the oldest. At least it isn't according to Hardy Oelke.

[DianneC]

I let the owners know how much we had to offer and they said it was $1200 short. So they will go ahead with the gelding tomorrow. I suspect we'll see him available again as a gelding. His owner is not in good health but knows how beautiful he is and wants to be able to ride him.

[sbutter]

I am sorry to hear about your dad, but its nice to know that you got to spend some time with him before he passed.

I wasn't quite sure if I wanted to jump into this, but the topic has somewhat transformed from what it was, so I guess I will take a stab at it.

We need good kigers PERIOD out there. But between a horse being a stallion or a gelding (if it were being shown) I would pick stallion. This is if he legitimately warrants being a stallion. A gelding will only do so much for the breed. Sure they can have an impeccable show record and get kigers out in the public eye, but with all the new hype being generated from that horse, who are people going to breed to? Way too many kiger stallions are "quiet" as far as what they have accomplished. In a sense, the horse would be an all in one package, because it helps with the hype and then helps direct the breeding when it is done showing. People can "follow" that stallion his whole entire life where a gelding hits the wall when he is "done." The owners of the stallion have a huge responsibility, because they can choose to restrict the breedings or leave them wide open. Quality or quantity offspring is the question. If managed right, the stallion will have a huge impact on the kiger world, not just by himself, but from his offspring as well. So looking at it this way, a really good kiger stallion is needed over a nice gelding.

I am still "leery" of kigers with show records, because I wonder what kind of quality of show it was. I love the fact that they are getting out in the public eye, but strictly looking at it from the business side, I still may pick a good "unkown" kiger stallion over one that showed at kigerfest. I rather see a kiger competing against other breeds of horses that were bred for a specific purpose than one who is up against his classmates in the school basketball game. When I see that happening, I would consider that horse to be "proving" himself. Also, would "quality" horseman agree that the horse proved himself. Again, I don't care about quantity, I care about quality. If the fan base consists of horse "enthusiasts" we need to find a way to make the horseman agree as well. From my viewpoint, I struggle picking out a kiger to use as an example of "proven" to an outside horseman. Sure, he may be proven compared to his counterparts, but when the majority of kigers never step foot in a show ring or prove themselves in another venue, it doesn't really mean much. There are still too many variables with this breed, but that can be used to a person's advantage. I like to buy low and sell high, so I like finding those "undervalued" horses (easier to do with TBs than kigers at the moment).


But if the question is whether he is just going to be standing around or not, he would be better off as a gelding than a horse that stands out in pasture. If he has a career ahead of him as either a stallion or a gelding, let him have a chance as a stallion.

As far as pictures go, I agree with what Michelle said. It can be so hard to judge a stallion from a standing photo, because you don't know how he will actually move. You can only guess by looking at his conformation. There have been plenty TB stallions that we have seen that have fantastic conformation, but as soon as we see them walk, we pass on them, because their hind leg can't even reach the spot where the front foot stepped off. So, it is a balance. You want function. If all the "right" pieces are there, but he doesn't have the movement or stride to go with it, then it is a serious fault in a stallion.

As far as "type" goes, we have two main types in TBs, but they are still obviously TBs. Putting it very simplistically, there are the long, lean, narrow distant runners or the QH on long legs sprint runners. Both seem completely different and yet I have no problems distinguishing them as a TB. I can separate them out from other breeds. So, I think the same can go for kigers. I don't knock on either type as long as a can tell they are a kiger.

[stormyranch]

Sarah, YOu are wise beyond your years!

[JoanMRK]

Isn't she though?... Love it! ;D

[Michelle Clarke]

This is turning out to be a very good discussion and one that is needed. There is another very good reason that we need more good Kiger stallions...so the breed does not get stalled out with all the same genetics! One of the biggest problem with the Lusitanos over past years in the US is that they were all related. It is only until recently that new blood is being brought in consistantly and the breed can open up some.

The same is true with the Kigers in my opinion. Yes, at some point they are all related, but in my mind, there are less than 10 stallions that have been bred alot - and even those may be related (like Steens and Silverado). In my opinion, a horse like Rio has some really great unrelated lines to add to the breeding pool.

Having a stallion is a big responsibility and if you want to make money with that horse, he needs to be campaigned and that takes money and more money; it can be a full time job.

Besides being a good physical speciman, a stallion needs to know how to put it together and move. They need to be trainable and easy to handle if you are going for a general riding market (as opposed for certain other sport type). After all that, they need to improve the mares they are bred to and produce balanced, trainable and gentle foals. This is where they are proven in my eyes - not in the show ring. I have been around P L E N T Y of stallions that were difficult to handle, a pain to be around, threw subpar foals, yet excelled in the show ring. So, that does not impress me. I don't want to offend anyone here, but when we have horses come in for training that are a "champion western pleasure" horse - I expect something maybe that has been shown at the Congress...not to find out it won a few classes at the 4H field. It is all relative.

Some folks see value in blue ribbons, some in published articles and pictures in the paper...it is all fluff to me. Show me a stallion that consistantly throws balanced, versatile foals that are gentle to handle and easy to train. That's the proof to me. That is why a stallion deserves to be a stallion or a mare deserves her spot in the breeding shed for that matter...

This is not meant to be a dig at anyone - just my opinion!

Dianne, sorry it won't work out with Rio. I hope they can work with a trainer that can do him some justice.

[sbutter]

Lol...thanks for the compliments guys

That was another facet that I did not touch on. If a stallion can't reproduce a high caliber horse, then he shouldn't be breeding at all. That's why it is nice to have some test foals out of mares that you already know produce nice foals. That way you can have an idea of how they compare to all the other mare's foals. With TBs, the practice used to be that you would only breed new stallions to older proven mares or vice versa. Now the trend is to breed a hot new young stallion to a top filly off the track, so you are dealing with two unknowns.

Right now, it seems like kiger breeders like to tote the fact that they have a great example of the kiger breed, just by looking at his conformation. That is just half the story to me. Can the horse perform well at whatever job it is given? Whats the point of having a good looking horse that just performs average?

A similar example would be when people ask us about breeding their TB horses. Our first question is whether they are breeding to sell or to race. At first they seem confused by the question, because they assume that they would be the same thing. In a very simplified form, the sale horses will "look" the part, so they have to have perfect conformation and be by a stallion that is very commercial. For racing, we would aim them to a stallion that may not have "perfect" looking foals, but a high percentage of them become top performers and later producers. It's nice to find a balance between the two, but stallions like that cost an arm and a leg and your first born child. Thats why it is important with kigers to really measure the stallion's capabilities. Some may have the talent even though they may not fit the "perfect" conformation, while others have the conformation, but not the talent. I am not saying breed sub-par conformationed horses, but there needs to be a balance. Whats the point of having one without the other?

There has to be a better way of keeping track of all of these different lines of kiger blood. Some TB stallions don't really prove their value until their grandfoals knock the socks off of everyone. We also use what I would call zooming in and zooming out. Many TB breeders look at the past lineage and nicking without looking at what is happening immediately. We have people call up and say that they have a really well bred mare and we will look her up. If her mother or siblings haven't done anything in anyway that would warrant consideration, I don't care what cross they were, because chances are, I can find 500 other TBs with the same cross. So, if you have to refer to distant relatives or horses that are not in the immediate family, you are in trouble. There is a reason nothing is happening in the immediate family. We like to eliminate as many risks as we can, and that is one area that we are not willing to risk.

Kigers are not really at this point yet, but I am instantly reminded of it when I hear that so and so is somehow related to Donner. Its nice to be able to have a name that everyone is familiar with, but again, something has to be happening now to warrant a decent price. We are at the stage where we have to pump the money into our kigers and get them out there, otherwise, we will lose money and it is not a feasible business. Immediate profits may not be reasonable and it has become a long term investment to be a breeder. It is a tough time, but one I think will refine the kiger breed into better stock if we work together.

[Michelle Clarke]

Sarah...you have had the great opportunity to be a part of a breeding operation with horses that need to perform and impeccable records are kept. That is far more than most breeders ever have a chance to experience and that has put you way ahead of the game! Most breeders do not look past the first generation they are producing and never will, regardless of what kind of horses they are breeding. At that point, it is hard to come to any measure of what you are really putting out there unless you are lucky enough to have a few mares that really nick with your stallion.

I picked Charro (sight unseen) because I began seeing his foals and the quality of mares they came out of (or shall I say "lack" of quality...). I was willing to give him a chance because of what he was already producing. Is he perfect? No. Does he have an extensive show record. Nope. Was he easy to train? No, but he had alot of baggage to overcome and there were glimpses early on of his talent and trainability. He had issues and would sometimes quickly revert back to a previously learned behavior, but was easy to come back to reality and try. He consistanly produces very trainable foals. This leaves an open market of venues for the buyers of the young horses. Charro has proven himself in his production of foals and now, grand-foals...his fillies are wonderful producers.

Desi was gelded for two reasons: first, he did not out produce Charro or really come close. His foals do not have the "class" that Charros' does. Nice foals, but not outstanding. The only way to know that was to breed him. Second, because of previously having EPM, his performance career was very scetchy; his left hind leg was not 100%. I had been invited to ride him with the Baroque group at the World Games this year, however he could not stand up to the hard physical training that we began so I had a hard decision to make. Not only was I giving up a stallion that in all sense "should have" produced - had the conformation, temperment, ability, size (he is a solid 16'2) and bloodlines (we already knew what Charro produced and his dam, Madonna, was a terrific producer), but a chance to put the Kigers up a notch in the public eye; especially in the english type crowd...it was a long 8 mile drive the the vets for castration and lots of tears shed, let me tell you!

In the end it has worked out because honestly, I did not want a stallion around here that could not be shown or exhibited. Even though he had all the ingredience to produce, he did not.

Now we have Gringo coming up. He is three this year, getting under saddle and has alot of great qualities. Ideally, like Sarah stated, he should be bred to proven mares first so we have a comparison. Since I feel in a bind to keep breeding Charro to the purebred mares at this point and I don't want to miss any more time on those lines, Gringo will be bred to a purebred Charro daughter for her first foal. Being a Charro daughter and out of a mare that I have other related siblings too by different stallions, we should get a good idea, however slight. I have other mares I can breed him too, but they all have the creme gene and I honestly don't want to produce a bunch of double dilute foals with those blue eyes, which I have over 75% of a chance by doing that.

If I wait until Gringo is under saddle and performing at something, then wait for the perfect situation with mares, then waiting to see what those foals are like, I could be looking at keeping him intact for another 7-8 years before I know what he'll really produce. Better to breed him to a few mares early on, evaluate what is on the ground and his training future than keep him intact and maybe prolong castrating him and finding him a forever home early on. However, I'll have no problem making that decision if he does not produce anything of quality in the next few years...

[angelsdream]

Posting for Kim

[angelsdream]

[kimk]

I agree wholeheartledy with most of what has been said here. However, in some aspects a show record does show the trainability and tractabitiy of a stallion. None of mine are difficult to handle and they tend to be the ones I put kids on who want "pony rides"
The bottom pic of Kody shows him being ridden and the "Celebrate The Horse" expo by a 14 year old 4h girl. She exhibited him that entire weekend for me, as I was driving his dam Savannah. The top pic is from the Western States Horse Expo in Sacramento which kody partook of two years in a row.
The problem I see with alot of Kiger owners, myself included is lack of funds to promote them as they deserve.
I also believe the proof is in the pudding so to speak, and so far Kody has definitely proven himself in his get.
Dianne, I am sorry it came to this for Rio, but I'd rather see him be a gelding that gets used than a stallion his owners are uncomfortable handling and just stands around.
That has been my point all along, not that Rio is somehow unworthy.

[sbutter]

In one sense, it doesn't take much to be a great kiger stallion and in another, it does. There is not much "resistance" that they have to go through. Its not like we already have 20 kiger stallions that have really made there mark in the horse circles and everyone knows about them. The two that I have found outside horse enthusiasts to know about are Kiger Cougar and Donner. Cougar is now a gelding and I don't know if Donner ever bred. When you think about it, our only real adversary is time and money. Other breeds are well established so they have to jump through more hoops to really prove their stallions merit, but with kiger circles, we don't have the "well established" resistance.

If you have a great stallion that throws good foals and you put the time and money into campaigning him, that is almost a guarantee success in kiger circles at this present time. In this economy, you can almost measure a successful stallion by how much demand there are for his foals. If you have trouble bringing a decent price for his foals, then not enough has been done. This is no longer a cheap business and you have to have the money to pump into your stock. If a foal doesn't sell, you have to be willing to further invest in that foal. If you know you don't have the money to do that, then you may have to severely cut back just to survive. The current situation can be a blessing, because we no longer can get the money now, but have to invest and promote our horses in order to make money in the long haul. This is looking at it from the business perspective.

You can't always look to the past to value your horse. For broodmares (and stallions for that matter) we look at what their progeny have done. I don't care if the mare or stallion was a Kentucky Derby or Triple Crown winner, if they can't produce a high caliber foal, then there is no point to breed them. We have a lot of owners that get excited over a so and so daughter that has been bred to the best, but have not produced anything worth mentioning. They are in disbelief when we pass over them, but we point to the produce and ask what the point in having her is if she can't reproduce anything.

Kigers have a long way to go, but I believe they are well worth it. There is a reason we are all smitten with our kigers, but if we want them to survive for later generations, we have to get them competing professionally.

[barbhorses]

Donner is at Return to Freedom and is not available for breeding. He was after all, given to a sanctuary. Also, what has he done other than having professional artists include him in a movie? Does anyone know if Donner even has a show record?

[sbutter]

I knew he was eventually given to a sanctuary, I just didn't know what was done with him before. Looking through the all mighty google, I only found this information on him www.springwaterstation.com/news/oregon.html I don't know if all that actually was done with him as far as traveling and exhibitions go, but that was all I was able to glean.

[JoanMRK]

I really don't remember or think that Donner has really done anything except have artists draw him... Granted, I still like to tell the local kids that he's Sunnie's uncle but really in the whole grand scheme of things it's really nothing to boast about. He was a movie star, and a gorgeous one at that, but that's about it from what I can recall.