Should we be concerned?

[prizmbluekigers]

Am I the only one who is very alarmed by the actions of the BLM with regard to gathers and the fate of our mustangs? Anyone following the story of the Calico horses and the cancelled gather of Eagle Mountain? The death toll from the Calico gather is at about 60 head - about half of this number was due to miscarriages. I get emotional about these issues so Michelle can delete the topic is it is offensive to anyone but we need to watch what is going on as there is no guarantee that the Kigers are exempt from further reduction of numbers.

What about genetic viability in the Kiger herds currently? If Dr. Cothran is correct and folks seem to hold him in regard as an equine geneticist, then our horses are in trouble. A herd of less that 100-150 horses will reproduce but what will we get?

Between the cattle, gas and oil industries we are out lobbied at every turn. I contacted somone at the ASPCA who informs me they are trying to do their part in changing the fate of wild horses, but there are only 5 ASPCA lobbyists for the whole country. In Defense of Animals is working hard for change and I guess maybe if they keep sueing the government they may slow things down. Salazar was to testify before the Interior Committee this week and that was cancelled suddenly. Someone coined the phrase "Salazoo' for the proposed sanctuaries back in the midwest. Let him go live in one. It makes me wonder if anyone in a high position wiht BLM really "gets it" or if they are destined to follow blindly the failed past policies and procedures.

Do the math. It costs the taxpayers $3.92 per day for each horse in holding and we get $1.35/AUM per month (a cow calf pair is one AUM, a horse is one AUM and 5 sheep or deer are one AUM). In my late night wonderings which I admit border on random solutions that might never work, I wonder why we can't pay ourselves $1.35 per horse and shut out the cattle? Don't sleep much so I have lots of spare time to muse.

I called Burns BLM and was told no one had been out to the Kiger HMAs this winter and they aren't sure where the horses are so we are starting Saturday where we saw many of them last summer and fall. I can't wait to see if we have new foals yet - bet we have at least a couple.

I know it is hard to be sympathetic to the plight of animals when so many people are struggling, but if you are interested at all, son't take my word for this, take the time to do your homework and decide and then do something. Write, call, e-mail, fax our legislators. Tell them to pass sensible legislation after they hear from a few more experts, not just Salazar who had or still has ties to the cattle industry.

Do not even get me started on how Dave Catoor can work for BLM after he was convicted (reduced to misdemeanor) for trapping and transporting mustangs illegally. He makes money on each horse that enters the catch pen, so he wants to find as many horses as he can when they gather. With what he has been paid for gathers we could support the entire mustang population for years.

I know there is no easy answer, but I will end by saying BLM does not have it right yet.

[Michelle Clarke]

I am sure not up on all the wild horse issues like some are, but I belive we sure should be concerned. I don't belive they are being "protected" as it is outlined they should be. It is literally a shame, especially when so many countries protect their wild herds and have gone to great lengths to care for and repopulate them.

I for one, appreciate the time and effort you take to go out to the herd areas and check up on the horses and share info and pictures...thank you!

[prizmbluekigers]

Thanks Michelle, we enjoy going out to the HMAs so much I am sure we will continue even after the documentary is finished. I have learned SO much from observing Kigers, mine and the ones in the wild. We are going out tomorrow and I had an update from Burns BLM - hats off to Travis who called me with a great update letting me know that for the most part, the horses are where we saw them last fall (before the gates were re-opened).

He said we would probably not get in any further than Wood Camp reservoir on the Kiger cause of road conditions, but we won't need to go further to see horses. It hasn't been a hard winter here so I hope to see them in good shape and we hope to see new foals. If anyone else is going out, he said the group we call "Band of Five" is still hanging out around the Ant Hill so you might try there. Oh, and not much action on the Lambing Grounds although one band led by a Grulla stallion is seen there regularly. We have him on tape from last summer. Now I need to speak with the person who manages the area including the Riddle HMA and find those horses.

I try to remain objective and do my homework before I cry "foul" Mchelle and I realize that it is never as ggod or as bad as some would have you believe, but in this case the numbers don't add up, the policies are questionable and the horses are disappearing from thier homes. Enough said.

[DianneC]

So help me understand the math...How much does it cost to round up each horse on average? And we pay $3.92 a day to feed them AFTER we pay to transport them to holding, so we can put more cattle on the range? And how much does each cow/calf cost the taxpayer? $1.35 a month? Is that right? You've got to be kidding!

[desperatehorsewife]

Babies are appearing on the South Steens, so I'd assume they are on Kiger and Riddle as well.

I had originally been on the list for attending the gather of the Steens this year, but with the whole Pryor fiasco, they (BLM National) opted not to allow any spectators. Too bad. Has anyone here ever witnessed an Oregon gather? Andi said they trot them in here, which would account for a lower mortality rate compared to what has happened in Calico.

[oilpainterlee]

I am so heartsick by all of it. I participated in the 'Nebraska' 200 rescue of mustangs that were supposed to be safe horses from the BLM but were starving to death. BLM officials walked right by dying horses on the ground and did not put them out of their misery, just left them in the dirt. If anyone wants to read about all of it go to Habitat for Horses. Sorry if this is a repeat of someone else's previous posting or an issue already addressed here.
Honestly I was so depressed afterwards I could not draw a breath right, for months. I admit to feeling that the machine is too huge, the pockets getting lined, too powerful, for intervention in this plan for our mustangs. Why don't all our letters and calls make any difference so far?
But there is one point which I read that said the mustangs are starving on their current ranges. I believe this to be maybe 75% untrue......... Yet, I have a rescued estray mustang myself, from the Virginia City area, where the horses are indeed desperate, skinny, and getting hit by cars occasionally and I guess short on water too.

I'm sure somewhere there is an explanation for why Madeline Pickens, who offered to purchase and move to private land some 30k mustangs out of BLM pens, has not been allowed to do so, though I don't know the most current news on that.

[zingomom]

I am also terrified that the fate of our mustangs lies in the hands of the BLM. Having only recently watched the Cloud film by Ginger Kathrens, I was heartbroken to learn that his band has already been gathered. While I understand that these round-ups can be a blessing to starving herds, I saw no evidence of any malnutrition in the Pryor Mountain mustangs.

I'm doing what I can do to help get the ROAM act passed. I've signed several petitions urging the BLM to address the mismanagement of their round-ups and holding facilities, and have written to California Senator Dianne Feinstein several times. From what I've been told, the ROAM act has been referred to the Senate Committee on Energy and Natural Resources, but I don't know when it is to be reviewed. I can only hope it's in time to maintain proper genetic viability within the existing herds. If there's anything else I can do to help spread the word, please let me know.

[prizmbluekigers]

The Interior Committee was to have met on Feb 24th and Salazar was to testify and ask for $43.5 million to build the first of seven or so "sanctuaries in the Midwest so that he can create viewing zoos for the mustangs and charge admission. The meeting was postponed with no word on re-scheduling.

I get my facts (I hope they are all facts) from various places, including BLM, so I am pretty sure the $3.92 a day in holding is accurate and the amount it costs to gather one horse is about $700.00 for the round up company pockets per head and by the time you add in vet, shots, worming, castration ets, the cost approaches $3,000. 00- also a BLM figure.

If Andi is correct and they trot horses here then why do they run them elswhere? If you run them into the trap then you can go back out quicker to get more $$$$$. I'm not saying she is wrong, but I would sure like to see for myself.

[desperatehorsewife]

I'm going to give you guys evidence of lack of forage here, because there seems to be a misconception that there is plenty to eat.



From a distance, it looks like there is food. Horses do not eat sage, however, nor do they like the bunch grass (nor do the deer, as it goes untouched.) I've heard people say the horses will eat the sage, bunch grass and strip bark from trees in winter to help feed themselves. They say this like it is a good thing and okay. But mares are gestating and need nutrition. This would be considered abuse if we allowed it in domestic situations, so I fail to see how it's good for the wild horses?



This is not an uncommon site when you see the mares. She is thin. Some are not as thin...some are thinner. Stallions are looking good because they're not nursing or carrying a foal. Why do we seem to think it's okay for a mare to be nursing a foal, carrying another, and have nothing to eat so long as she's free and wild?

When we were at the corrals, the horses from the South Steens looked good. Wouldn't you rather they be pulled when they look good and keep the range in decent condition for those who are left, rather than for the horses to totally deplete it? The Paisley horses at the corral were all quite thin and when someone had been down on that range a few weeks ago, they came back commenting that they didn't know how the horses were surviving.

Don't believe all the negatives you hear about the BLM, either. Sure, Salazar is one you probably don't want to trust, but those who work with the horses CARE. When I recently asked if there was anyone in the Harney Co. region who may want to take an aged sale authority mare if we could find sponsors, one of the BLM personnel came to her rescue...sponsors not needed.

There are definitely issues that need to be dealt with, but please don't believe all the hype you hear coming from the Cloud Foundation. Rumors flew when it was announced Pryor was being gathered. People said Cloud and his family were going to slaughter. Give me a stinking break! The BLM only ever intended to vaccinate and do a health check on Cloud...and they do not send horses to slaughter.

As for Jason Meduna and 3 strikes...those horses were no longer under BLM protection, so what could they legally do? Nothing, until they found horses that were not titled. So don't blame the BLM for some idiot starving horses. Who gets the blame when other rescues do this to domestic horses? Breed associations?

Just my little Monday morning rant...

[desperatehorsewife]

If Andi is correct and they trot horses here then why do they run them elswhere? If you run them into the trap then you can go back out quicker to get more $$$$$. I'm not saying she is wrong, but I would sure like to see for myself.

I would like to see it, too. Perhaps management style?

Sorry I was so long winded in the last post ;D My observations are strictly from dealing with the Oregon BLM, and I know it to be very level headed. Many have small cattle operations, but also own a mustang or two. Keeping the horses healthy is a number one priority, but they can't seem to catch a break from anyone on either side.

[zingomom]

I appreciate your comments. There are always two sides to a story, and since it's such a compelling situation, I often only hear one point of view. I'm relieved to know at least some of the BLM folks are taking their job seriously out in Oregon, but question why there are still so many problems in other herd management areas. As always, I suppose it's a matter of finding the proper balance between keeping feasible herd sizes while maintaining genetic viability. Thanks again for your input.

[prizmbluekigers]

We try to remember that there are always two sides to a story and that both sides are frequently guilty of overstating an issue. We don't lump our Burns BLM in with the actions taken at a more national level and I know that there are many BLM employees who take thier jobs seriously and are dedicated to the horses, but there are also those who do it for a paycheck only and feel that wild horses are no of much value.

As for forage, I am not a range expert but if the horses are looking good then there is something for them to eat out there. There are not abundant lush pastures of tall green grass out there for grazing but there were signs of new grass already growing so all I am saying is that they look as though they wintered well. Hard to say for sure as we only saw 4 Kigers. Mustangs in other states such as Nevada face more challenging living conditions. Of course it is a shame to see thin mares in foal because we know what lack of nutrition can do to them. You pointed out the difference between the South Steens and the Paisley horses. There is a difference in their HMAs as far a forage. Some of the Kigers we saw last fall were trending toward fat quarter horse rear ends so the Kigers looked good and I can't speak to any other herd.

Not to start an argument, but IMO perhaps BLM manages the horses too much, that is to say that nature has a selection process that man has interferred with to the extent that if we now let the fate of a herd be determined by nature we will be deemed cruel or BLM will be accused of neglecting the horses. Think about this. Weak or ill horses either survived before we stepped in or they did not, but the strong survived in the face of poor grazing and little water. Now that we manage them, we feel duty bound to micro manage them.

There is no easy answere to this dilema but I will assure you we go for the facts before we make statements and everything that will be in the documentary will be verified or it will be cut. I am not trying to fan the flames of a movement to trash BLM, the documentary is not an expose. I never heard the slaughter romor about the Pryors but much of what the Cloud Foundation states is phrased to elicit the maximum emotional response from readers. In short, when I read some of their info it makes me cry every time so I have to step back and try to remain objective. What the round up did was split family bands and cause incredible stress when it may not have been necessary (folks who were there said the Pryor horses were not looking thin) so they did more than vaccinate and do well checks and the herd is now at less than 150 horses.

Do you ever get to the Kiger HMAs? We invite anyone to meet us out there later this year and we will share the locations of the bands with you or let you ride along if you don't have 4WD. Aside from the fact that you need to pack in all supplies it is a great place to camp and never crowded ;D. If you know more about rangeland please share. I have a new list of questions for the Burns management specialist about grazing and hope to meet face to face the next time we go out. Last year Bill Anderson answered questions and provided a good map of waterholes on both HMA's. Thanks for your remarks, it gives me even more to ponder.

[fantasykiger]

You know it is greed and the goverment trying to make everybody happy that gets in the way of properly managed Mustangs in my opinion. The ones that see it everyday that really care often have their hands tied. Sorta damed if do damed if you don't. Leaving them alone to play the survival of the fittest card is just as cruel as loading em up and shipping them to Mexico in my opinion. There is way more Mustangs then there is Mustang owners and more on the way if something is not done to properly manage reproduction. They have to compete the continued reproduction of domestic horses as well with no new owners bound for rescues. I am discovering rescues are not all peaches and cream either.

[desperatehorsewife]

No doubt that the government micro-manages everything it can I do think it's a tough job when there are plenty of small towns (such as Burns) that depend on ranching families. I often see numbers thrown up with foreign interests, but it's the local families who still manage those ranches and are dependent on that income to survive.

The horses didn't survive before we began managing them, however. They were rounded up, shot, slaughtered. What's happening now is not at all as horrific as that. I think we need to recognize that, because while what we have isn't perfect, it's the lesser of two evils as far as I can tell.

[spanishsagegrullas]

As the wild horse and burro rep on the Southeastern Oregon Resources Advisory Council, I, too, have experience with the Oregon BLM -- Vale, Lake, and Burns Districts -- and I am in the process of drafting a long response to post here, based in part on that experience.

My first line is worth repeating

YES we should be concerned.

The Wild Horse and Burro Protection Act was put in place to protect them from those actions of man such as Tracey says she relies on to feel that the horses are in a better place now. But one must ask -- Why did people do that to the horses to begin with? Were their lives threatened?

The horses did fine out in the wilds, with the typical lifestyle of a wild animal, in regards to population control. It was man's interjection into that system that puts it out of balance, and I personally think that therefore man has a duty to correct the problem, or support the imbalances.

The picture of the forage actually shows forage, but you need to know what you are looking at. No, the horses probably will not eat the taller, bitter sage brush, but it will eat the smaller yellow grasses, and if you look closely you will see green at the base. The bare areas of ground are naturally that way, not as a result of overgrazing or an indication that there is little food. We must be careful not to apply our subjective, what a domestic horse should look like as far as weight and what they will eat, on the wild horses, because it is quite different.

Yes, concern is highly warranted if people wish to see the wild herds remain on the BLM lands.

Diane P.
Spanish Sage Ranch