Should we be concerned?

[desperatehorsewife]

The horses did fine out in the wilds, with the typical lifestyle of a wild animal, in regards to population control. It was man's interjection into that system that puts it out of balance, and I personally think that therefore man has a duty to correct the problem, or support the imbalances.

Well, see...here's my problem, I guess. These horses are not native. They are domestic horses turned loose or escaped from domestic situations over the years. So I guess I do believe that it's cruel to leave them out there and expect them to survive like a 'wild' animal, just as I think it's cruel to leave a colony of cats or dogs out to fend for themselves.

I'd much rather see the horses gathered in a pre-starving state than afterward. And I'd like there to be enough forage for more than just the horses. Is there green up there on the Steens? Yes...limited. Nothing is eating the yellow grass, neither horse nor deer and obviously the cattle didn't eat it down. It's untouched. I guess I liken it to straw...it fills the belly if nothing else can be found, but where's the nutrition? And why is it acceptable for the horses to eat it, when their nutritional needs are the same as our domestic horses?

Are there issues with the program? Absolutely. Is the whole thing a big axis of evil? Hardly.

[spanishsagegrullas]

The wild horses have been running loose in North America for more or less 500 years. They were present in the Pacific NW long before there were any substantial numbers of “domestic” horses to turn loose. Weren’t they legendary for their stamina, agility, hardiness, sought after by the western inhabitants of what is now the United States? I doubt they would have been so revered had they all been in poor, weak, starving conditions.

Your position, Tracey, assumes quite a bit. How do you know that the nutritional requirements of wild horses are exactly the same as the domestic horses? Why, then, are people so concerned when they find out that the wild horses are fed a diet that domestic horses can handle? How do you know that the wild horses are not meeting their own nutritional requirements? Are there a lot of foals born with problems that indicate there is a dietary problem out in the wild? Are there a lot of dying dams because they just can’t keep up with their own needs?

Regarding the state of “starvation” in the horses that have been rounded up, I have a challenge for you, Tracey: I would like to see pictures taken of the Oregon herds that have been rounded up in the past two years, pictures with date stamps, taken immediately after or during round up. If they can show how the wild horses have been faring out on their respective HMAs, it would be interesting to see how starving those horses look. You can email them to me privately, if you want.

I have not seen any real evidence that the horses are “starving” out on their HMAs, and it would be good to find out if anyone has any real, documented, factual data about availability of forage and how accessible the horses are to it. More likely, the horses are not finding access to a water source, and you all should realize by now that if horse don’t have anything to drink, they won’t eat, either. The only emergency situations I have heard of in recent times regarding lack of water was because the horses were fenced out of their usual watering areas by ranchers or the fed government, or a new well has been developed for private use which has drained the HMA water source. No one has been investigating why these reduced water availability situations are occurring, only gathering the horses and screaming about what a burden they are once in the holding pens.

Are there a lot of thin deer and antelope that indicate that there is poor forage? Are people no longer hunting them out on the HMAs because their body condition is so poor due to lack of forage? I think we all need to take what is being told to us about the HMA conditions nationwide with a grain of salt, and ask if it makes sense based upon other signs that should also be noticed, and based upon whether the cattle industry is similarly having their allotments reduced if conditions are so bad, because the conclusions were are told are surely not based on research on the current conditions and the long term growing cycle trends.

Tracey, I know you personally do a lot to get these horses that have been gathered adopted and into good homes, so please everyone recognize that she does help a lot on the individual horse level. I really am grateful to you for your substantial efforts with that.

As far as the management of the horses and the program before the horses get to the point where they have to be adopted out, I think there are a lot of factors which have not been shown to be true, on both sides of the issue, so as intelligent members of society we have to be able to critically evaluate what we are told as “truth.”

The BLM is mandated to protect the “wild and free roaming horse” and to manage the public lands, with first priority going to maintaining the natural resources of the areas, for all uses, not one commercial industry above all other uses. From my personal experience with a variety of BLM personnel, they do not like that they have a mandate to deal with the horses in a manner that supports them. They would much rather deal with maintaining the lands for cattle grazing and hunting purposes.

Diane P.

[desperatehorsewife]

Dianne, I believe you and I will simply need to agree to disagree here.

That the horses began gathering on the plains 500 years ago is not in dispute. That does not make them native...it makes them feral horses who were left behind or escaped from the Spaniards. But what about the horses more recently than those descended from Spanish stock? What about those drafts and thoroughbreds and every other breeder/rancher/passer-by who tossed their horses out there as recently as last week? These horses have become abundant, and they will eat the range to nothing if left unchecked.

Non-native.

As far as nutrition...for each expert you gather to say their needs are different (wild vs domestic), I can gather one to object. To me, it's like saying 'I adopted from a third world country. They're easier keepers because they haven't had as much food to eat in their native land.'

Good nutrition is good nutrition, period. You can feed whatever you'd like, but my horses eat alfalfa and grain, just like their domestic counterparts.

I never said there were deformed foals; I said mares are suffering because their needs are not being met. We would not accept our horses looking like these mares do in the wild. Would any of you want your Kigers looking like the mare I've shown? When someone gasps and says it's under weight, would you say, "Oh, she's wild bred so it's okay if her ribs and hip bones are poking through her winter coat''? Probably not. Come on, folks...I've seen pictures of your fat ponies ;D None of us wants our mustangs to need to fight for each blade of grass and we'd never think to offer 'their nutritional needs are different' as an excuse for a thin horse...would we?


I realize people want to blame the rancher. But the ranchers had their agreement for grazing in place prior to the horses being protected. Do we simply renege on that contract? Do we tell thousands of rural Americans that their lives must change and their livelihood is gone because horses are more important? I hardly think that's fair. And even if we pulled each and every cow and calf off the range, how long do you think it would take for the horses to multiply to the point of depleting all the food available to them?

Of course there will be areas of mismanagement. There always are, from the government on down to the local Brownies troop. I'm not arguing that. But I am saying don't lump everyone into one group and make the assumption that all are evil simply because they draw a BLM paycheck, and rather than run around with signs protesting, make a few trips up in winter to see what you can see and make informed decisions for yourself.

And Dianne...thank you for your passion, even if we don't see eye to eye on this

I believe one of the reasons that the horses likely did better 200 years ago than they do now is that we've settled the west. Is anyone willing to pull up stakes and move east so that the horses can reclaim your land? Just asking...cuz it was something that crossed my mind today. Settling the west was probably the biggest detriment to the wild horse population. So...should everyone on the left coast head back east? Like I said...just something that crossed my mind as probably a bigger issue than ranchers...

[Andi]

Hey everyone!

I haven't been here in awhile but my ears were burning!

I was fortunate enough to go on a gather of the South Steens horses a few years back, with the Cattoors doing the gather. I was *extremely* impressed with their method. We were in a "blind" so as to not spook the incoming herd. We heard the helicopter for probably 20 minutes before we saw it. He was trailing the horses, a band of about 20 or so maybe, swooping back and forth to keep them bunched up and together and they were trotting along, some loping easily, none of them running all out. It was October, cold, and starting to snow and none of them were sweated up or breathing hard. I have video of it somewhere.

The horses DID start to run at the end ... when the Judas was released. Because the Judas runs full bore straight for the trap -- and the grain dish awaiting him. The others see him run and follow. The wranglers on the ground follow with the flags to stop any stragglers from turning around and they close the gates. The horses are then left to settle for awhile, as they get used to the idea they aren't going anywhere.

After about 20-30 minutes, the wranglers sort out the stallions from the mares and the mare and foals. They load the girls with babies up (there weren't but a couple small ones), then the rest of the mares and young stock and then the studs, all in separate compartments.

The worst part was when they landed in the trap. They were confused and the stallions were fighting and horses were hollering. They settled down quickly, mostly due to the wranglers being quiet and easy in their handling.

**********

Now, as to forage and what wild horses eat. I'm sorry but I will have to disagree that wild horses need a different diet than domestics. First and foremost, they are horses. Period. They are horses and have the same individual needs as any other horse. Some may be IR and can't take sweet feeds. Some may be hard keepers and need more protein and alfalfa. Some may be puff balls and need straight grass hay. Most are a happy medium and do just find on a nice grass/alfalfa mix. We've raised over 2 dozen orphans for the BLM and have rescued and fostered and raised who knows how many horses, domestic and BLM over the last 10 years and I have been around wild horses since 1966. Horses are horses, wild born or domestic and they have individual needs, period. Saying wild horses need different feed than domestic horses is like saying Quarter Horses should be fed differently than Appaloosa's. They are still just horses.

As to the condition of the horses and the condition of the range. Last year, they did an emergency gather of Coyote Lakes/Alvord Tule here in Oregon. The Oregon BLM (Vale district) had been asking for a year for a gather but the powers that be said no. They were finally granted permission and funds when the situation became critical. As in no feed, little water and starving and dying horses. I have photos somewhere of the horses the day after they came in and very few did NOT have ribs showing. Going into winter (it was early fall), they should NOT be skinny.

This is a man-made situation and as such, needs to be managed. The BLM screws up -- they are government and the amount of political BS alone pretty much insures that. But they need some positive input to assist. And I'd love to see Salazar gone. He's an idiot and looking after his pocketbook.

Horses need to be gathered, plain and simple. Some herds need more horses to remain genetically viable than others, for some reason. When Dr. Cothran did the genetic study of some herds in Oregon, he determined the Murderer's Creek HMA, which is isolated from other HMA's, is one of the most unique, genetically viable herds in Oregon, and they contain 3 of the 4 Spanish markers known. And it's also believed this herd is the result of 3 ranches turning their horses out in the depression time ... a QH/stock horse breeder, a TB breeder and a Morgan breeder. The HMA is about 30,000 acres and they keep 50-100 horses on it.

The Kiger HMA and Riddle HMA, as you all know, I'm sure, started off with 27 horses out of Beaty's Butte way back when. Those horses were split up into the 2 HMA's and horses were added here and there over the years until the last 20 years or so. I've seen the Kiger and Riddle herds get culled so severely that the genetics have suffered, I'm afraid. Back around 93 or 96, I think it was, horses that were deemed to have "excess white" were culled. I've even seen horses pulled from the adoption pens and put with the residual horses because they were not dun horses. That's just nuts! If you want a grulla, you got to have a black horse in the mix. If you want a dun, you kind of need a bay in there.

I feel Oregon has done an exceptional job overall in the managing of the herds. In reality, the BLM is the largest breeder of horses in the country. Because, really, it's what they are, a breeder of horses. But it's for the horse's best interest because the horses DO need to be managed and if you want them to find homes, then having the best quality of horse possible to appeal to the public is what is needed. There are several herds in Oregon that aren't viewed as "prime" herds because they aren't as "pretty" as the Kigers, the Steens, the Palomino Buttes, the Beaty's Butte's, the Warm Springs. But overall, Oregon horses are sought after because the BLM does a good job and manages the herds for not just color but for their conformation and their disposition. Less horses every gather are "suicidal" in Oregon as a result.

And as for removing cows off the land? That is just crazy. Horses and cows, when grazed and managed properly, compliment each other and actually make the range healthier. Cows are only out there 2-4 months out of the year. Ranchers are the ones who maintain fences and waterholes, put out salt and mineral blocks, etc. The horses use them too. There is private land in almost every HMA and you simply can NOT tell them they can't run cows there. And the ones with allotments? Some of those allotments were there before the BLM ran things and some allotments are on 10 year leases. You can't just revoke them. In an already depressed economy, putting family ranches out of business (which most of them are family ranches) would kill the rural areas and drive the price of beef sky high. Land out west grazes cattle that only 5% of our nation eats; much is exported. If that beef isn't there to export, then more have to be raised somewhere else, like in feedlots. Florida is the largest cattle producing state in the US; if all beef grown to eat here and for exports had to be grown back east in feed lots, we would be seeing t-bones at $20 to $25 per pound in no time.

But regardless of the cost of beef, the cost of the range is at stake. I, for one, want future generations to see wild horses on the range. But I want them to see HEALTHY horses, not runted, skinny, malnourished, ugly little things on a range that is nearly destroyed.

How many horses running on the range is "enough"? The law reads they are a "symbol"; how many denotes a symbol? Did you know when the law was enacted there were around 17,000 horses on the range? Now there are around 25,000 to 30,000. How many do we WANT on the range? How many deer, elk, antelope, rabbits, birds, etc. should be removed from the range to allow for a non-native feral animal to be there as a "symbol"? Don't get me wrong -- I love the wild horses and they have been a part of my life for over 45 years. The first horse I rode was an old mare named Old Trixie that came out of the south Catlow Valley area back in the 50's; I rode her in the 60's. So I am FOR leaving horses on the range and I do NOT want a single horse going to some stinking "zoo" back east that Salazar thinks is a dandy thing to do.

OK ... that was a lot more long winded than I meant to be! Sorry! <grin>

[fantasykiger]

Andi ...thanks for sharing your thoughts and your experiences here on the forum and taking the time to type it all out.

[spanishsagegrullas]

I am still intending to post a long reply to this but since it was current, thought I'd bring peoples' attention to the Calico Mtns gather post, esp this comment:

"Wild horses comprise a small fraction of grazing animals on public lands, where they are outnumbered by livestock nearly 50 to 1. The BLM has recently increased cattle grazing allotments in areas where wild horses are being removed. Currently the BLM manages more than 256 million acres of public lands of which cattle grazing is allowed on 160 million acres; wild horses are only allowed on 26.6 million acres this land, which must be shared with cattle. The Obama Administration plans to remove nearly 12,000 wild horses and burros from public lands by October 2010."

Also thought people might be interested to read some documents that reportedly were obtained via FOIA regarding BLMs past discussions and considerations about how to get around the legal requirements in their consideration of euthanizing the Long Term Holding horses here:

conquistadorprogram.org/blm_wild_horses/blmhorsealtmgtoptions.pdf

Finally, thought I would encourage you all to put your thinking caps on and see if you are struck with the descrepancy in this statement:

When Dr. Cothran did the genetic study of some herds in Oregon, he determined the Murderer's Creek HMA, which is isolated from other HMA's, is one of the most unique, genetically viable herds in Oregon, and they contain 3 of the 4 Spanish markers known. And it's also believed this herd is the result of 3 ranches turning their horses out in the depression time ... a QH/stock horse breeder, a TB breeder and a Morgan breeder.

Lots of discrediting statements are made, in the guise of "fact" so that the actual scientific, historical, and global importance of the mustangs is dimished. How did a mixture of domestic raised and released to the wild TB, QH, and Morgans create a herd that a scientist has said contains 3 of the 4 Spanish markers known?

Just food for thought and suggesting you all use your noggins!

Diane P
Spanish Sage Ranch

[spanishsagegrullas]

Given that BLM is still rounding up wild horses, and 7 died a few days ago in a gather, this topic needs to be brought up again.

I once asked Tracey or whomever says that the horses are starving to provide pictures of the horses immediately after the gather, showing them in their thin state. I have not received any response. On March 3, 2010 I asked the following:

"Regarding the state of “starvation” in the horses that have been rounded up, I have a challenge for you, Tracey: I would like to see pictures taken of the Oregon herds that have been rounded up in the past two years, pictures with date stamps, taken immediately after or during round up. If they can show how the wild horses have been faring out on their respective HMAs, it would be interesting to see how starving those horses look. You can email them to me privately, if you want."


I will paste below a long synopsis of the wild horse issues that were written by someone else, not me, but shares most of my thoughts.

YES WE SHOULD BE CONCERNED. AND WE SHOULD BE ACTIVELY CONCERNED.


"Synopsis: American Wild Horse Crisis ~by Sonya Spaziani

I've decided to write a synopsis of the many conversation/information provided to others regarding our wild horse issue, to hopefully help others gain a better understanding of the importance of this. If you find this as helpful and would like to share this information, please feel free, as there is still little understanding about why this wild horse plight is so important.

It is rather apparent that there is a need for accurate education, to counter-balance the government's repeated attempts at propaganda suggesting our nation's wild horses are starving and need "major culling". I appreciate the opportunity to provide information based on by my own research and cross-referencing, as well as my own personal studies out among the wild horses in SE Oregon, to make this information as factual as possible for others to utilize.

It's important to step back and look at the big picture. The BLM staff in the various BLM gathering regions is not at fault, they're doing their jobs... merely following orders from their boss in the big office in Washington DC. The 1971 Wild Free-Roaming Horse and Burro Act mandates that wild horses and burros be managed on 47 million acres of public lands on 303 herd areas. Since 1971, wild horses have been zeroed out from 111 herd areas representing over 19 million acres. With escalated roundups, since year 2000, wild horse numbers have been reduced by 40% and six states lost all their remaining herds. Roundups cost tax payers millions, in additon...feeding, vet care, euthanizing our captured wild horses in government facilities are also costing us millions, while the wild horses on the ranges cost us nothing. Yet they roundup more. For year 2010, records show BLM will be removing an additional (approx.) 12,000 of our wild horses to add to the overburdened holding facilities of 33,000-36,000. It is a sad shame that there are more mustangs in captivity than out on our public ranges specifically set aside for them.

All should be very concerned about the wild horses issue because I have gone over BLM database showing the sheer huge numbers of mustangs to be removed... again as stated, adding 10,000-12,000 more horses by October 2010 to the huge number of mustangs already in captivity, we are currently feeding at tax-payers expense (approx. $34 Million). Many of these herds are being "zero'd" out and lost in that area permanently. We have plenty of land and really when we're talking about millions upon millions of acres of public land to a few thousand wild horses, there really is not a problem of too many horses. Absolutely there needs to be management, but not to this extreme degree.

I study wild horses in se Oregon, and am a believer if they're born wild, they ARE wild. But even more important, horses are linked by DNA to early horse in North America prior to the ice age, and ONLY found in North America. With that said, THEY ARE NATIVE AND WARRANT FEDERAL PROTECTION. In addition, for the last couple hundred years with their RE-introduction by the Spaniards, there's been many generations of mustangs, further evolving characteristics, herd and individualistic behaviors, most suited for that environment. As an aside: Too much human interference (like a breeding program) dictated by human likes and dislikes and personal tastes, will produce herds of, for instance, attractive halter horses, rather than what the environment calls for NATURALLY to help them survive extreme conditions that occur in the basin range. I appreciate all horses of all walks of life, but I'm in awe to see the 'natural mustangs', and to see what natural selection has evolved based on that particular environment.. ie, typically bigger/stonger legs, big healthy feet with thick hoof walls, etc.

I search hard to find small bands of mustangs, and even though I know them and their behaviors well, many times I don't find them. We don't have a problem with too many wild horses out in the ranges as they say. Just this last month in SE Oregon (the herds I observe) 2/3 of the horses were removed, leaving only approximately 130-150 mustangs on the designated 175,000-acre Steens Mountain Wilderness. What's even more disheartening is that if wild horses have crossed an unseen boundary off the herd management area, BLM views them as "strays" and they're sent to auction to the highest bigger where our icons of our west end up overseas on other countries dinner plates as "American delicasies" in Europe and Asia, where horses can fetch $25 dollars per pound- and our goverenment allows this- It's heinous, inappropriate, and unacceptable. What about the 1971 Act to protect them? Because the '71 Wild Horse and Burro Act was secretly ammended in 2004 shooting holes in wild horse protection.

Why is this happening to our mustangs then? The answer, point blank "Money". OUR public lands allotted and PROMISED to US and our wild horses (through the wild horse act of 1971, but then surreptitiously amended in 2004, which is where the struggle was resurrected), has gotten smaller, and continues to do so. Why? Because individuals pay to LEASE public (meaning "our") lands from the government for grazing rights. But it doesn't stop there.. there's also big game hunting (money for tags), urban sprawl (money for land), oil, and recently ~ wind turbines, and the latest eye-opener... URANIUM mines, see Mustang for Uranium~ earthchamber11.blogspot.com/2009/09/new-american-genocide-horses-for.html . It's crystal clear why money is the main thread and source behind the removal of more and more mustangs... Our economy is in crisis, and our government is paying it's bills in part with this National treasure. Mustangs which are our western and National heritage.... symbols of freedom, spirit, and individuality. Without the iconic symbol roaming free in the American west, and the fight for freedom, the world will never view this great Nation the same if they are placed in aritificial game preserves.

It is indeed important to know both sides of the story. The government officials who's plight to reduce free-ranging mustangs, claiming that it's due to their concern and welfare for the animals to protect them from famine by keeping mustang numbers down... are the SAME government officials who want to kill these amazing animals, who they've mismanaged and put into government holding facilities (as stated, but important to repeaat... 33,000 mustangs, yet they continue roundups. Is this making any sense to anyone?? Why roundup more to add to the problem on our dime, just to destroy them... again, on our dime?

For the average person, who is not up to speed with this issue... it may be comforting to hear gov/BLM say "it's for the welfare of these horses". Wild horses like ALL wild animals can do just fine without human intervention. True, the only predators wild horses have (beside the obvious~ man) are cougars (Thanks again to "intervention" nearly eliminating wolves). BUT EVEN SO, lack of forage for whatever the reason, IS also a process of nature, and keeps herds in check. Why must we attempt to control everything, including the effective functioning of an ecosystem? Insufficient forage means less birth rates, and of course, during times of drought or famine there would fully functioning natural selection. Our natural laws of the ecosystem are fully functional and self-adjusting. If a horse is lost to famine, nature also has a way to give back and recycles it to benefit other animals or organisms.

North America in early 1900's had 2 million mustangs... my heart sinks when I think there's now a mere 27,000, and only a few states have them. The west without mustangs? Empty, and in my opinion, no longer considered wild or the "last frontier'... as we've conquered/controlled it down to the last wild animal. Once our wild horses are gone off the western rangelands, our last open spaces and what's considered "the last frontier" will also be taken and converted to populated areas with strip malls, wind turbines, homes, and airports.. as it is in the rest of the US... With the horses gone, the land can be utilized. That's why I say with a heavy heart, with every roundup, our west is less wild. Truly, I believe, the loss of wild horse freedom in this big west of ours, eerily parallels our own loss of freedom/s as citizens of this great country.

Please know that in the recent past, there has been a proposal to create aritficial preserves, remove our horses from the west and move them to the midwest and east-breedingless horses behind fences. This is why all of what I, and many other wild horse advocates, are pushing so hard to prevent, more "natural wild herds" from being manipulated, controlled, thereby exterminated. Is there anyone out there who would like to take their family to a zoo to view wild horses? We must protect our western frontiers, and keep our wild horses protected and free on them, if we want to hold onto to any last remaining wild places and truly wild horses.

This whole issue is difficult to process and help others understand it's scope, because there are many facets to consider. I want, and I want future generations to view the wild herds, and see "natural" mustangs, the way the land helped shape them. As I've already mentioned, I personally do not want mustangs on a 'breeding program', producing what is considered the conformation style/popular attributes by human standards, such as herds of 'halter horses', then rather what NATURE created. Once born wild, the mustangs are wild and we have hundreds of generations of these horses, shaped by their environment and their ancestors before them to protect.

Alternative suggestions:
Yes, management is necessary, but we need to have regulations so we don't lose the natural mustang. Contraception may be an option, but again with careful regulations (lead by wild horse advocate coalitions) and records overseen by another advocacy agency so wild horses aren't part of a human imposed breeding program, but assuring genetic representation of horses in each unique band. Perhaps even paying cattle ranchers, reducing their grazing leases, or taxes for those with mustangs on their borrowed or private land... is also another option. Correct management must be the least invasive to be appropriate, but natural selection is key. I would recommend 'appropriate' management to be OVERSEEN by a well respected and expert wild horse coalition, along with regular and unbiased range analysis.

Here's a "food for thought" if you will, in regards to "fearing for wild horses and starvation".... Keep in mind if the few thousand remaining wild horses were really doing so poorly on the range lands, so would the millions of cattle and other livestock, as well as big game (pronghorn antelope, deer and elk) enjoying those very same public ranges 'set aside' for the mustangs, then they too would also be adversely effected. If in the occasional occurance of drought and no forage, it would be more cost effective to drop in hay rather than the costly and deadly roundups- more of our mustangs adding to the stockpile of around 35,000 wild horses now in capitivity which greatly outnumber those wild on our public ranges. Finally, considering that these public rangelands belong to the American people, as do the mustangs, and while the government is employed by the people entrusting the care of our horses to them, then it's time for the government to stop and take notice what is important to this country and the demand for a moratorium on roundups and restructure the system of appropropriate wild horse and burro management.

Thank you for the opportunity to discuss this tremendous issue at length regarding our amazing symbol of our great nation, as well as our last frontier.

"Together THEY stand. Divided THEY fall".
Sonya
aka Mustang Meg"

[DianneC]

Last night I read a "survey" sent to my dad, whose mail I'm getting since he is gone. It was one of the higher ups in the Republican Party. No offense intended as I'm sure Democrats do the same, but the "questions" were worded to ellict the answer he wanted and of course to get funds. The question that was so interesting was "should we open our west to oil and gas exploration so we are not dependent on foreign oil". I thought it was open, but apparently he has something else in mind.

[DianneC]

The only HMA I'm familiar with is the Kiger. I've been there maybe five times. Others probably know it better and have been there more recently and can give an update. I've noticed since 2003 that there are new fences up along the road to the viewing area. The spring near the road and all the creek below it have been fenced, which must move the mustangs to other areas because the last two times I was there I couldn't find any horse sign down low at all where we used to see Kigers all the time.
The cattle may be out there with the Kigers only for 4 months before they are gathered in the fall. But there are a lot more cattle than years past. Last time I was there was in Fall several years ago. They were moving the cattle to privately owned fenced areas that had not been grazed, leaving the Kigers mainly in the area from the road out to the flats. I walked out on Mestano flats - there was no grass left at all, just a prickly weed that nothing was eating. Worried about winter, I called the new BLM wild horse manager and she said that they were going to open the gates to keep the small bunch grass from being eliminated. Her concern was not the horses, she was worried about the native plants. That's good too, but different than the past. When we were there we saw Kigers on the far side of Smyth Creek but none around the Ant Hill or on up where they are being seen now so they did open the gates. I'm glad they have more of "their" HMA to graze now but wonder about herds being cut off from one another. Or maybe the gates are still open and they can go back and forth.

The employees of the BLM are hard working folks trying to feed their families. I think that the guys and gals that worked at the BLM in Burns up until 2003 were the most amazing and wonderful of horse experts and managers. They obviously loved the horses and were proud of their work. I've wondered why everyone left at the same time? I think I know...the emphasis shifted to cattle management. Due to budget cuts, I think the practice of putting the best Kigers back isn't done any longer. Helicopters are super expensive and its easier to just round up the number that need to leave instead of rounding up all the Kigers and putting the best back. And the quality of horses has suffered tremendously. Everyone remembers the last Kiger roundup and the horses offered for adoption. There was one horse that went for something like $14,000. because it was one of the few that looked like a pre-2003 Kiger.
It just seems like money is the only important thing. And in spite of the law, mustangs "have" to take a back seat. I suspect that many of us know what the huge cattle operations like Simplot, with 2 million acres of public grazing allotments, must think of wild horses. The deer and antelope get hunted so they are good, the cattle and sheep bring in money so they are great. Wild horses just eat the grass and reproduce, so they are desert rats and competition. But the land is ours and the horses are ours.
Its easy to say its OK, it will be alright. But I feel we need to have the courage to honor our horses and be heard - and make sure they are a priority.

[desperatehorsewife]

I once asked Tracey or whomever says that the horses are starving to provide pictures of the horses immediately after the gather, showing them in their thin state. I have not received any response. On March 3, 2010 I asked the following:

"Regarding the state of “starvation” in the horses that have been rounded up, I have a challenge for you, Tracey: I would like to see pictures taken of the Oregon herds that have been rounded up in the past two years, pictures with date stamps, taken immediately after or during round up. If they can show how the wild horses have been faring out on their respective HMAs, it would be interesting to see how starving those horses look. You can email them to me privately, if you want."

Really, Dianne? I live 600 miles away. Not like I can just trot on out and take photos for you. But here are some photos for your doubtful mind:

25 year old mare gathered off Paisley. We found her at the corrals in Feb, gathered just two months earlier. The hard part about winter coats is that they hide so much, but she was roughly a 3-3.5 on the body scale. Lucky girl was purchased by Ramona.



Below is a Coyote Lakes mare, gathered Nov. '08, photo taken when I picked up Steve Holt! in December '08. Nursing a baby, can you honestly say she looks good enough to go through the winter without intervention?




How about this mare, heavy with foal and searching for something nutritional to keep herself and unborn foal alive? If this is what looks good to you for the dead of winter on a bred mare, then I feel for your horses, Dianne.



BTW...above mare is South Steens, and we passed the watering hole on the way up the hill. Plenty of water, not much food.

I'll be attending the Jackie's Butte gather in October. Happy to eat my words if I don't see a single skinny horse come in

[spanishsagegrullas]

Tracey don't get your knickers in a twist! I thought that with all your contacts with BLM people and such that surely someone would have pictures of horses immediately after a gather. Sorry, guess no one does.

I do not put any stock in how the horses in the pens look especially several months after a gather. Most of us know how bad and thin the Kigers were in 2007, when the picture taken for the catalogue showed nice fat horses. And they had been in the pens for months. That's why I asked for date-stamped pictures. So until I see pictures of the herds of horses immediately upon gathering, or out on the HMAs, in starvation status, I won't believe a word of the spin that is put out.

As for an estimate of emaciation scale, on an untouchable horse in winter coat, one really cannot tell anything. Much of it is based on being able to see spinous processes of the spine, and the amount of fat padding on the tail base. Which is not visible. It was very kind of Ramona to adopt a mare slated for the LTH.

And you did post that picture of that mare from the Steens in March, isn't that when you took it? I would not call that the dead of winter. And so much is related to age --- how do you know that isn't a 23 year old mare in foal? To be specific, in that picture, I do not see ribs, I see a nice, round rump, and plenty of flesh on the withers and shoulder. Maybe she looked different when viewing live.

Individual pictures cannot be used to extrapolate on an entire herd's status.

Sure, take pictures of Jackies Butte horses. I bet you can find a skinny one, but I bet 90% of them are just fine, for a healthy horse. Maybe not as fat as some people keep their domestic or captive horses, but we all know that the US has a problem assessing what is a healthy weight.

And anyone who has pictures taken of the herds immediately after they have been gathered, please contact me.

Has anyone seen pictures of the horses rounded up in the past few days, when 12 died in Nevada, and 3 in Oregon gathers? I don't recall seeing severly emaciated horses. Didn't see any thin ones in the pictures of the Calico horses being run into the traps, either.

Additionally, I know of two ranches in that have cattle on BLM allotments...and what do they do with their privately owned thousands of acres? They grow hay on it during the time when the cattle is out on the BLM land. Enough to sell to you and me, and to ship off to Japan. This is not rumor but personal knowledge. Will these ranches go under if they have to pull some or all of their cattle off of BLM lands? I don't think so. They just won't profit from the extra hay.

And finally, I was reading about the West Douglas gather in Colorado last night. BLM wants to zero out that HMA because of what they consider overpopulation and not enough food. However, according to the court, based on the documents received by the BLM, the reason there is a forage issue is because the BLM allowed gas and mineral development in the north half of the HMA and that disrupted the horses that grazed there and they moved south. So now BLM claims they are "excess". Sorry, Tracey, but this type of "management" of the wild horses is not what I have any respect for.

Diane P.

[desperatehorsewife]

Dianne, my knickers are not in a knot. And you asked for photos...which I gave you, and now you're dismissing them.

No one likes what's happening in NV, but you asked for OR and I believe I gave you good evidence.

The mare on the Steens is from Feb, as I stated. Taken during color fest. Why does it matter how old she is? Do you think it's okay for aged horses to be thin? I don't. Healthy is healthy is healthy, especially when in foal.

Not sure how you can deny the mare in the top photo is thin. All her ribs were showing as well as her backbone protruding, hair and all. Just can't see it in the photo, and winter coats make a horse look fatter, not thinner.

I'm not sure which Kiger adoption you were at, but the one I attended had horses who'd been gathered 30 days prior to the event. Are you suggesting otherwise with this statement?

Most of us know how bad and thin the Kigers were in 2007, when the picture taken for the catalogue showed nice fat horses. And they had been in the pens for months.

No one denies the horses go through hell when being gathered, Dianne, but leaving them out there to starve is simply unacceptable, and as of yet there has been no suggestion as to how to prevent that need. What is your solution?

DianneC, I heard that the cattle numbers allowed had tripled under Salazar. I totally understand the family rancher needing to utilize the land, but must admit to being frustrated over foreign owned or corporate ranching. Tika is badly scarred on three legs from a tangle with barbed wire. I'm pretty certain this accounts for her jumpy attitude when things bump up against her when she's not expecting it...then again, it could just be her, who knows? But I do wonder if the scarring will prevent any hard work from her (should I ever get to that point) in the future.

[DianneC]

First of all, when horses are first brought in they take a while to get used to eating alfalfa. At least that was the explanation given at the number of skinny horses at the last Kiger adoption. I was told that they were in good condition when they were brought in but wouldn't eat alfalfa at first. Maybe someone can comment on this that knows.
Horses in the wild DO die of starvation sometimes. How much a horse gets to eat depends on their status in the herd. A low status mare with a foal is in a bad situation if there is a drought, late or heavy snow, but especially if there have been more cattle than the land can handle in a bad year!! I think the point is that the horses do well like any other wild creature when not fenced off from water or unable to move to another area because of fences. One disadvantage to taking the older mares off is that they are the ones that are the herd leaders that know where there is water and other pastures. They evolved on this land and the millions that were here when people first came to the west testifies to their ability to survive in the wild just fine overall. If you get the chance read "The Mustangs" written by J. Frank Dobie in 1934.
But what I am saying is that its OK if they are fighting nature and die. That's the law of nature, only the strongest survive. What's NOT OK is to have so many cattle on the land that it can't support the horses over winter after the cattle go home. I've seen that. The ranchers don't leave their cows out for the winter so they don't care. The solution is not to round up more horses!!! Its to reduce the number of cattle to what the land can handle in a bad year. That's just common sense. But there is MONEY to be made so that's not what happens. I'm not sure what a grown steer is worth today, used to be $500 a head. Somehow we need a solution where the horses are worth money to the ranchers. My vote would be to give them a stipend per head of mustang on their grazing allotment that would be the same as what the horse would take to feed in long term holding AND reduce the number of cattle. However, I think that an allotment (x number of cow/calf pairs on x number of acres) is good for ten years. I don't think the mustangs have ten years in Nevada. And its not the small rancher that is at stake here. Its profits for multimillion dollar companies that have the political clout (and contributions) to get what they want.

Tracey, a few years ago I was on the Kiger HMA just below the viewing area. As we crossed a brand new fence I found the old five strand barb wire fence laying in the grass below it. The contractors had just left it there and it was a trap for any horse. I found the foreleg bone of a foal tangled in it. Stripped of flesh but still pink and fresh. I was crying and cursing at the same time. Knowing mares and herd dynamics I could imagine the panic over the trapped foal and the attempts to defend it that must have happened. Bobbe and her husband went out and made sure it was picked up and they found more in other areas. Bless them! I'll bet Tika got into something like that as it would be unusual for three legs to be scared if she rolled into it and it would be her chest if she ran into it. There was a lot of that fence, it went on for a long, long way and you can not tell me that the contractors just forgot to pick it up.

[DianneC]

There are overstatements by some wild horse organizations, but The Edward R. Murrow Regional Award was given to a Nevada news station for their coverage about Nevada's BLM practices last December. The award is given for truthful journalism. Many of us are aware that the Oregon BLM operates in a vastly better way than Nevada. Why I don't know. There are several segments of the video to watch. Perhaps we can discuss this.
www.8newsnow.com/global/story.asp?s=11285225

[desperatehorsewife]

Ah...Dianne P...this is where we differ. Horses are not here naturally, but deposited by man. They died off naturally thousands of years ago. Today's horse is a product of our own poor management, and not the BLM's. Set free by the Spanish, the cavalry, ranchers, farmers, settlers and yesterday by half a dozen Native Americans and a bunch of folks who simply can't afford to feed them anymore. So as far as I can tell, there's no reason to continue to leave them out there to fend off starvation when they should never have been there to begin with.

So a handful of wild horses as mandated by law. Enough to keep the herds genetically viable. I love seeing them out there, too, but we need to be pragmatic about this and realize that starvation is not a pretty thing...nor is it natural in this situation.

Regarding the alfalfa, yes, I'm sure there are those who won't eat it at first. I would venture to guess it's more the stress than the switch in feed...but that's just my own thought.

Dianne C, I think things are so out of control in NV simply because of the sheer number of horses; half of all wild horses live there. They likely see the horses as a plague, like locusts. They aren't only out on the ranges, but in people's backyards. And while it may make some folks feel all Disney, we all know that a horse who begins to lose it's fear can become a real safety issue...rather like a feral dog. Again...I don't know the answer to this problem, but few horses (and more adopters) would be a good start.