Keeper-what color am I?

[JoanMRK]

I will verify that Dino's dosal is much darker in person and very defined. Pics are not doing them justice. He is a dun.

[spanishsagegrullas]

I don't want to prolong this ridiculous dialogue that Miss Jones has started, so want to just make sure, for clarity's sake, is there anyone who thinks that, regardless of amount of dorsal and stripes a horse has, if the body color is the same shade that a horse without stripes could be (thus concluding that no body coat dilution has occurred), the horse is not diluted in body coat and therefore cannot be dun? That has never been a theory that anyone discussing dun genes and the dun factor, in circles I have been in for 7 years now, ever proposed. In fact, if that is what Ms. Jones is saying, she is certainly alone in that.

There has been much discussion about what constitutes a dorsal, especially in dorsal-only duns, and some people have attributed that to countershading. One can always find a web site on the internet which would agree with any thought anyone has in their heads. I am sure you could find one that firmly believes the Holocaust never happenned, and is only a government plot, too.

As I have said previously, countershading is a not a new concept, and is well known in wildlife ecology. It was taught to me decades ago in college, and I believe it is very misunderstood by people who do not have a biology and wildlife ecology background. Only time and further research will tell on that one. In Dino's case, if he has produced dun markings on non-dun horses, that is proof positive. Unless Ms. Jones has a different theory of reproduction and genetics, too.

Good luck, Miss Jones, on getting into vet school. You might want to concentrate more on your Vet Tech studies, first. You need As to get into vet school, at least here in the US. Maybe you could combine your previously planned trip to Europe (that is what you had planned, according to you, if you broke up with your boyfriend in the military) with attending a foreign vet school.

Diane P.

[DianneC]

I agree with Diane. I think we missed a good chance to discuss shading in all this. I'll start a new thread.
To circle back to the original question about Keeper. Lisa, you're a savy horsewoman, if you see red then this is a red dun, probably a super dark one. Pictures just can't capture the difference between brownish black and black legs and it looks like he is still shedding a bit. I actually had Calista turn regular dun color one year. I looked out into the herd and couldn't pick her out by color from Cedar and the regular duns. But the next year she was red, and now is red as can be.

[fantasykiger]

That said... it does not explain how he produces dun foals from non-dun mares, unless he is a dun.

I know this post is about Keeper, he is one of those shades of dun with a skinny dorsal like my Wickee, of course Wickee's dorsal does not even reach her withers before is starts to fade away, another oddity.

[Michelle Clarke]

Okay, a few thoughts here....in my experience the dun gene can show up in varied degrees of dilution; meaning the body can dilute alot or little. When the sooty gene is attached with that, then it goes back in and darkens the dilution. For example, my Andy/Arab mare is a dark chestnut with blood marks which appear almost black - she has the sooty. All of her red based foals by Charro and now Desi, have been red dun (which would be four). She has had a normal looking grullo and two dark grullos by Charro...and for the most part the dark ones appear black mainly in spring and then in fall. In the summer especially, the legs and face stay pitch black, while the body gets lighter.

You can clearly see that the hair where the dorsal is, is very very different - besides where you can see the stripe go into the tail. It is usually longer and it has a different texture.

I would venture to guess that if a horse holds both sooty and dun that it is quite possible that the dorsal may not be "hard-lined" and have some countershading on the edges. Meaning you can have both.

It is my belief that Charro is homozygous for the dun, as he has about 20 foals on the ground out of solid colored mares and all are some form of dun. These two dark grullos are the only ones of this color and both out of the same mare. We have two dunalinos by Charro and out of palamino mares...one filly, you can clearly see the dun striping on the dorsal, leg barring and face mask. The other seems to have the sooty gene at work too and sometimes you can see them, other times not. She naturally has alot of cobwebbing on her legs due to the sooty gene.

I do belive that some Kigers are not dominant in the dun, so it is quite possible that they can have sooty foals with countershading...that does not mean they are NOT duns themselves.

We had a QH in for training that was a liver chestnut color, but had a very hard line strip down his back and into his tail. Stupidly, I did not get a picture of him...

I'll have to get some picts of Brisa. Her dam is a very wildly striped mare and her sire, Desi, has lots too. She has a clear, hard line dorsal, mascara, ear tips, ghost marks, bi-colored mane...however, her legs are mottled looking. You can kind of distinguish leg barring, but you have to know you are looking for it.

Since it is belived that the dun is a cluster of genes, it only makes sense that they can express themselves differently on different horses and colors. Even if it wasn't, it would seem to me it would matter what color it was going onto and how it took shape. Just like some pinto colors are hard lines, some are jagged and some have roan-type edges.

It is interesting that when we cross Charro onto solid colored mares, that we get different expressions of dun....some have wide stripes, some thin, some scant leg bars and some defined and abundant. Even full siblings will have different markings. This clearly means it does not pass down the same every time.

[Michelle Clarke]

BTW, I am going with Joan on this one...I think he is a dun - just as his sire is!