|
|
Post by sbutter on Mar 22, 2009 16:35:18 GMT -5
How much stress should be put into straight legs on kigers? In the Thoroughbred world it is extremely important and a lot is done to make sure that the legs can grow as straight as possible as they are developing as babies. Depending on if the baby is toeing in or out we use acrylic on the inside or outside of the hoof if trimming the hoof is not enough to help turn the hoof around. We also watch to see if the foot turns out from the knee or if it is the whole leg. We prefer the whole leg, because it is less stress on the joints. A common procedure use to be periosteal stripping to help the legs grow straight, but we prefer the acrylic even though the babies can pop them off sometimes. You also want a really good horseshoer who can trim the hoof and the acrylic as the baby is developing and the chest starts developing. I guess I am wondering what needs to happen to help make the kigers make it to the next level and I don't want to cut corners. Just curious on everyone's take on it.
|
|
|
|
Post by Michelle Clarke on Mar 22, 2009 21:26:07 GMT -5
Spanish horses in general, can have a tendancy to toe out when they are young due to the slender chest and shoulders - the angles kind of get closer to the body toward the elbow (if that makes sense). The turning in is from the shoulder, not the leg itself. If you were to hold the foals leg from the knee and let it hang, you would see the hoof hang straight.
If this is "corrected" when they are young, then they will permanately toe-in when they are adults. A vet from Spain wrote an article on this subject and says to leave them alone as young ones, trim them balanced, but not corrective. We have experienced this first hand. When we started, we would corrective trim, and those horses as adults tend to toe in. The last few years we have only did balanced trims and have had straight legs/hooves so far.
We have a filly that was born with one foot practically sideways - she is coming a year old this year and her foot is nearly straight - just from balanced trims.
We have an old farrier that does a few horses here, and he was in charge of a big ranch were they had Gay Bar King as stud. He was very toed-in and so were all his foals. Once Ed figured out just to trim them balanced and not correct it, they developed properly. He was known as the only farrier that could keep a Gay Bar King foal from not toeing in...
Hope this puts a little perspective on it.
|
|
|
|
Post by sbutter on Mar 22, 2009 22:39:00 GMT -5
That does make sense. We have never had a problem with over-correcting, but we did notice an "epidemic" in Kentucky two years ago. Typically, the TB November sale always has horses with very good conformation towards the beginning of the sale (the first four or five days of a two week sale). But we noticed that 9 out of every 10 young TB mares in foal with their first baby toed in badly, and I mean badly. There were a couple that looked really good on paper, but once we saw them we crossed them off of our lists, because we were worried that they might hurt themselves out in pasture they looked that bad. We noticed it even with the weanlings. Kentucky has always been about 3 years ahead of the California TB folk and we wondered what could have possibly gone wrong with some of these "premier" horses of the sale. Now it is back to normal, but for about two years it was really bad, so hopefully they got rid of those farriers or they realized that they were overemphasizing to much.
What is the typical "norm" for a mature spanish horse's leg conformation. What variations might their be for different disciplines?
|
|
|
|
Post by barbhorses on Mar 25, 2009 22:47:34 GMT -5
Here is the norm:  Forms a nice box shape when connecting the point of the scapula with the elbow joint, although I am thinking that she might be slightly base narrow. Muscling is not overly done. Canons are right underneath the knee. Short canon bones with a medium length pastern. Bone size is perfect. Not overly thick nor overly refined. She doesn't have excessive flesh over her joints which is a common feature of draft horses.  She is slightly "cow hocked" which is perfect. When she walks, her legs wont bow out and she will have a much easier time going down steep hills, etc. than a horse with straight hind legs. This is a common fault I see in many breeds. Overly straight hindquarters which causes the horse's legs to bow out when they move. They also go miserably slow down hills; where my mare who is not built that way moves fast and agile down hills. Always knowing exactly where her body is and where her feet are. Certainly NOT a common feeling I get with most horses. Of course, being that she has a very nice shoulder angle (not too sloped back nor too upright) with a long, angled humerus allows her to move much more agile as well. She has nice smooth gaits (for a trotting horse) and is very responsive. This is my mare La Victoria. I am sure everyone knows by now that she is a Spanish Sulphur, not a Kiger. Not sure what the norm is for a Kiger, but this is old Iberian conformation. |
|
|
|
Post by Michelle Clarke on Mar 26, 2009 8:31:39 GMT -5
Sarah, I will get back with you on the standards and what is looked for with the Spanish Cria, Portuguese registrars and "iberian" officianatoes - what is looked for in MODERN DAY horses - super busy lately!!!!!
BTW, cow-hocked in NOT the norm (or at least not the desired norm)!!! This is a fault especially for a saddle horse (meaning a horse that carries weight and is used for the purpose of riding), which needs to move straight in order for the joints (hocks/pasterns mainly) and especially the feet not to wear down prematurely and cause unbalance.
Alot of cow-hockedness shows up because the horse in not in shape to carry the load of their own weight - it is a weakness. Many foals domestic bred are kept in small areas and cannot muscle up properly or are over-fed and fat, so the front legs turn in while the hind ones will turn out to carry more under the medial line of the torso.
More on this later....
|
|
|
|
Post by barbhorses on Mar 26, 2009 11:19:11 GMT -5
Well, I have found my mare's conformation much more useful than a horse with perfectly straight legs. Actually, according to the three volumes on the "Principles of Conformation" that is a HUGE irritation to the well known expert on equine anatomy which is Dr. Deb Bennett. I always liked that my horse was built that way and she just confirmed my own thoughts that it is the ideal and correct anatomy. I have always found horses with straight legs to be less agile and more clumsy on trail rides. They always have the classic bowing out at the hocks as well. So, I am going to have to disagree with you on that point Michelle.
|
|
|
|
Post by Michelle Clarke on Mar 26, 2009 21:52:34 GMT -5
Glad you found someone to back up your opinion - I suppose if I looked I can come up with 100 fold of people to back up the basic sense of straight legs. I have never seen what you call a "classic bowing out at the hocks", unless you are talking about big overgrown halter type QHs' that have so much rear end, their hocks can't take it. Might be crappy farrier work too!!
Being cow-hocked is a species fault - not just a breed fault. This means plain and simple, that the horse cannot carry the weight of itself and/or with a saddle and rider comfortably. When a leg is built this way, the hock will swing in toward the medial line (sometimes the whole leg) and the hip will drop excessively, instead of a strong, foward, carrying movement where the joints will equally take the load. In my opinion, when a horse moves this way, he cannot attain true roundess, being connected from the poll, all the way across the back and hip...
The feet will wear with the inside higher and cause undo stress on the outside heels and all of the joints. When joints are not straight - meaning the capsule if offset, the senovial fluid will not be able to flush out toxins continually. This causes wear and tear and early arthritis - amoung other things. From the picts, it appears the below mare has underslung heels in both back feet...
This affects any higher performance and lessens the usage of any horse long term - period.
While I belive that maybe the mustang populations have developed cow-hocks due to the ease of travel over varied terrain, I firmly belive this needs to be bred out. This is one factor that will mean the difference from the Kigers being a middle of the road breed to a top quality breed.
________
Sarah, JP has told me that a perfect front leg looks just like a thoroughbreds legs (minus the feet!). A good tie-in behind the knee is paramount for good attachment of tendons/ligaments. Joints should be large and square looking; clean and dry.
The shoulder and forearm angles should be closed and have the ability to "unfold" as the horse moves....along with the angle of the femur in the back and the stifle. Movement should appear as if the legs were on a bicycle with lift and reach, round and round.
Hocks should be lower than average for more collected work; they should come right under the point of buttock when square and the rear cannon should be straight to the ground with no diviation front and back.
Some like longer cannon bones and the knee more in the center of the leg, instead of short, stocky ones.
Viewed from the front, legs should be straight and centered out of and into each joint. A plumb line should be able to cut the leg exactly in half, including the joints, when hung from top to bottom on both front and back legs. From the side, the front leg should be centered under the halfway mark of the shoulder and a plumb line hanging straight down, cutting the leg in half all the way down with the heels of the foot under that line (meaning the hoof is not out in front of the leg not supporting the leg).
There is more in the VIP room or the private discusison room in regards to what is desired...
|
|
|
|
Post by desperatehorsewife on Mar 27, 2009 1:00:00 GMT -5
Okay, I've always heard being cowhocked is a fault. But then...I've always heard that paddling in the front end was a fault as well. Yet if you look at wild horses, they have both of those 'faults' in abundance. Why? If the horse doesn't carry their own weight as well, then wouldn't we be having more issues with break down and lame wild horses?
Just my personal, short term observation, but I'd say that being cowhocked is natural. Although some folks will insist there's a difference between 'narrow' and cowhocked, I think it's just a varying degree. I'm not at all concerned that my mustangs' hocks are set closer together than the man made breeds. So far, I'm not seeing it to be an issue.
|
|
|
|
Post by sbutter on Mar 27, 2009 1:22:52 GMT -5
Two things come to mind about the "species fault" and paddling. I don't know personally, but just thinking about wild horses and the natural selection of structure for what they need in the wild and domesticated should be different. In the wild they don't have the added weight of a person on their back, so they won't have that stress, which allows them to be sound for their own purposes, not ours. For a horse that is carrying a heavy load and asked to do many physical things that are not found in the wild, that horse would have to have an "improved" structure so it is properly adapted to what we need it to do. Basically, the more stress we put on the horse, the more that horse will have to be structurally sound for what we are asking it to do.
As for paddling, with race horses we look if it is from the knee or the elbow. The elbow is the whole leg and while it is a big waist of motion, it is not as hard on the knee. I am trying to remember who I heard it from, but is it common to find kigers that "paddle" from the elbow and not the knee? It would be more natural from the elbow, because they could go over brush without having to lift their legs up, right? I also thought that there was a term for this....it is escaping me right now...it sounded fancy though, lol.
|
|
|
|
Post by Michelle Clarke on Mar 27, 2009 7:37:20 GMT -5
The term for paddleing is "termino" and yes it is another structural fault for weight carrying. We have two thoroughbreds in to be started for the race track - the mare paddles. The owner already stated he knows she will be hard to keep sound at the track...it is from the knee. She is always hurting herself here - but she is a total fruit cake to begin with!
I agree that the wild horses have developed for their own purposes...I have only seen one Kiger that paddles personally. There was a famous Andalusian stallion that was very versatile and showed in every type of class. There was a big debate when they showed him in Saddle Seat because he would paddle; in order to get that big straight movement, he had to throw his legs out because he was not built for it.
There was a study done about 10 years ago on arthritis development in horses and they tested a bunch of mustangs to see when "naturally" it developed - the mustangs had earlier instances than most domestic horses. The average age was 5 years old...so what does that tell you? I don't think you see them as what we would call "lame", because again, they are not carrying weight out there plus they are quite a bit more stoic than your average horse! They do not like to show weakness.
The Peruvian Paso (that termino was bred into!), tends to break down early. They have alot of issues with those horses, especially fallen pasterns; special shoes; adequan; etc. Alot of performance stallions are retired early pretty crippled.
I have one Nevada mustang mare that helps run the wild bunch in the back and she paddles. Her feet do not break up nice and even like the other horses. They are always long, especially on the inside and flat because she does not break over evenly.
Whether you belive it is natural or okay or whatever, you have a Breed Standard that condons that and many people will walk the other way - and have! Especially when you are talking about Spanish type horse folks, the Andalusian and Lusitano people are very well educated on these subjects. As the Kiger evolves into a saddle horse, the Breed Standard needs to evolve with it.
|
|
|
|
Post by desperatehorsewife on Mar 27, 2009 9:37:23 GMT -5
Where is this study, and are there others to back it up? Because I think we all know several mustangs 5 and over who are not suffering from arthritis. 'Stoic' or not, arthritis can be painful and limiting.
|
|
|
|
Post by Michelle Clarke on Mar 27, 2009 12:48:17 GMT -5
I sure don't remember 10 years ago where I read it!!!
I said they had "instances", meaning not every mustang had it and it surely could NOT be an all-inclusive study on every herd in every area!! Test groups surely are limiting.
I know that many people do not have issues or problems with cow hocks or winging...many horses do very well with not-so-perfect conformation - just like people do! However, when you have a performance horse that is expected to have a heavy training schedule or a horse that has very advanced training in whatever discipline, trust me, it all matters to some degree or another.
|
|
|
|
Post by barbhorses on Mar 27, 2009 14:28:30 GMT -5
The degree that Victoria has her hind legs set at makes for a very strong leg. Every time I see horses with perfectly straight hind legs they bow out to some degree. Every single horse I have ever ridden with perfectly straight hind legs has more difficulty going down hills. Seems to me that having perfectly straight hind legs is a weakness. Where my mare with her "fault" (according to you) is much more agile with a very strong hock and can easily go down steep hills or up them with ease. She doesn't bow out at the hock nor does her hock bend inward. Sorry Michelle, but your reasonings don't appear to be sound. As it failed against my horse.
|
|
|
|
Post by barbhorses on Mar 27, 2009 14:42:46 GMT -5
Here is an illustration from Dr. Deb Bennett's book on the Principles of Conformation volume 1  This quote is from the harmful section on hind leg formation. I am only typing out what is relevant here. I am not typing out the entire section of other harmful hind leg conformations. "Most breeders would add cow hocks to the list, but this is incorrect. Horses are differentiated from other mammals precisely on the basis of the fact that horse hock bones (and stifle joint structure) force them to stand with their hocks pointing inward. In other words, a horse that is not cow-hocked is not horselike.; in fact, a horse with "straight" hocks as seen from the rear (figure 32b) is likely to move with wobbly, pathology-generating hocks. There are degrees of cow hock: if extreme enough to cause interference (figure 32c), the fault is a serious one, but hocks that face in are not a fault per se." |
|
|
|
Post by desperatehorsewife on Mar 27, 2009 15:45:00 GMT -5
Well then, Michelle, I guess your study isn't one that I'd be willing to throw out there as evidence. You don't remember who, you don't remember where, and since there doesn't appear to be another, we can't be too sure the article wasn't biased, can we?
|
|
