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Post by Michelle Clarke on Aug 16, 2008 15:10:45 GMT -5
Thought this was a good point on another recent thread - referring to why a horse with no show record would be worth $7,000.00?
So, what makes a horse worth dollars to you? What things do you look for when buying a new horse and to what value is it?
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Post by fantasykiger on Aug 16, 2008 15:46:05 GMT -5
A horse is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. One mans junk, is another mans treasure.
When looking at a high dollar horse to buy what do I expect to find, excellent temperment number one, good basic ground manners, close to perfection in conformation (nobody is perfect), if undersaddle I want to see a nice willing relaxed saddle horse, some good bloodlines on paper, That he has had some experience outside the training arena. Personaly I perfer a horse that has had several trail miles put on it, rather then several trips around a show ring but either one will make a horse worthy. Add some more dollars if they have both experiences.
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Post by canadiankigers on Aug 16, 2008 21:34:20 GMT -5
Excellent points Tiffany, I totally agree!! Temperament, conformation and athleticism are important and an easy going, down the trail, happy all around horse is well worth a fair price, even in today's market!!! I think that this type of market we are dealing with today is what is forcing the cream of the crop to the top. All the rest are just settling down to the bottom of the "sales list".
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Post by DianneC on Aug 17, 2008 11:07:42 GMT -5
I think it depends on what you want to use the horse for and what makes the horse unique, or to stand out from the competition. Dressage horses are usually much more expensive than trail horses. There aren't many Kiger horses in that area and with their good bone and feet are starting to draw a lot of interest. Many dressage riders don't want to do Grand Prix but love the sport and want a horse able to do upper level work as well as trail rides. And they would like a horse that is sane and isn't lame 4 months out of the year. Although Craig Stevens does a lot of clinics, in fact he spends a good part of the summer in Sweden and Scotland, there aren't hardly any horses for sale that are trained in his methods. To have a horse called "brilliant" by him would be a great selling point. If it had been my horse, I would have asked much, much more. Santana is also this same price, and worth it. His steady mind in addition to his talent has Gin and her husband enjoying him very much in addition to the belief that he can do upper level work easily. They have had a good deal of interest in him even though he isn't trained to the level of Cricket. At 16.2 hands he meets many of the criteria buyers are looking for. His competition at this stage are the young horses listed for sale in Flying Changes. Teanna is this same price, largely because I'm not in a hurry to sell her. Her unique breeding is why I am being picky about who gets her. I want these genes to continue to impact the Kiger breed. People are attracted to her color and conformation, along with size. She will be three this October and once she is under saddle her price will go up, a lot.
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Post by angelsdream on Aug 18, 2008 10:53:16 GMT -5
I think it's all in what kind of horse you're looking for, like Dianne said. What I might think is well worth the money, other's will think is a waste. I have a friend who has a kiger and a fox trotter and her neighbor has nothing but walking horse's and thinks all other horse's should be shot and not worth nothing. No matter how much experience it has or show record. I know when I say mustang to some people around here, they look at me like Im crazy, Ive heard the comment "they're all in bred horses and not good at nothing" - of course I had lots to say about that and which they were proven sooo wrong, after see'ing my "in bred mustang" they were very impressed. But again - it just goes back to the person that is looking, we all have different criteria in what we like, which is why it's wonderful we have so many different types of horses out there to choose from. Ive seen a well bred quarter horse with a show record in cutting that was amazing and could get down on a cow- but once he stepped out of the arena, he was scared of anything and everything. Now, to someone that was looking to compete in cutting, yes he'd be worth every penny, but for someone who was looking at trail riding - or even ranch work, not worth it.
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Post by kimk on Aug 18, 2008 13:07:46 GMT -5
I think too, especially in our breed, the show record, and/or trail,endurance,etc. performance record of sorts of the PARENTS is important. Since we don't have many generations to look back on, and of those a lot of folks in the beginning really didn't do much but breed. I think a foal out of proven performance parents should be worth more than a foal out of parents who are unbroken broodstock. Taking into consideration that the foals are otherwise comparable in conformation, disposition etc. I personally think it's a shame that we humans are trying to change the Kigers into 16+ hand horses that they were never intended to be. I haven't yet read a breed standard for any of the Kiger registries that goes above 15.2, and IMO 16h should be considered a fault. JMO Kim
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Post by Michelle Clarke on Aug 18, 2008 16:22:17 GMT -5
Some thoughtful points here....
What does it mean to buyers that a horse has show/performance points? Sure it means something to someone who wants a horse that is already acheiving these things. However, just because a horse can do transitions on the rail in a pleasure class or run a cow down the fence - what does that prove? What does it prove for the offspring if the parents have done it?
There are not alot of owners that are going to put the time into taking the wild Kigers to a high level of training or performance....and anyway, if they did, how many people are going to stand in line with a fat checkbook and make the financial commitment to write a check for one of these foals? I mean to actually pay what they are worth? as a prospect?
What I see rampant is the trend to hold no value in the actually training of an animal. Just because there are no "show points", does not de-value a horse, or show that they have not proven something. At minimum they have proven trainability. Not to mention the fact that these are dollars that the new owner does not have to spend in starting the horse/putting basic schooling on/even some advanced concepts. The hard work is done - all the strengths and weaknesses have become apparent and the horse can be better focused in both more training and a much more suitable new owner.
Showing does not prove trainability either. I can't tell you the amount of horses we have had in for training with "show points", including olympic caliber animals and trainers, that are just plain nightmares to deal with outside of the routine they know.
I am not saying a show horse isn't worth anything...but when I go to the Andalusian/Lusitano Nationals and see 1-3 horses in a class, I am not that impressed when a horse is "National Champion". If I saw an add on the internet for a nat. champ. mare and she was priced accordingly (40k), then how would I know she was the only one in the class??
On the other hand, how could you put a price tag on a mare that will take care of the owner? I know of a TW mare whos owner has a muscle disease. When the gal has an attack and can't control herself, the mare stops no matter where she is at, stands stock still and whinnies until someone comes. She has never been trained for this. How can you put a price on this trait? You can't.
Kigers in general are underpriced. A super versatile horse, with soft gaits, great bone/joints/feet, sound, high immunity, natural resistance, easy to get along with, highly trainable, great teeth/mouths, likes people AND is pretty - come on. An average, amature owner can do a pretty good job with getting along with a Kiger.
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Post by Michelle Clarke on Aug 18, 2008 16:29:55 GMT -5
Kim, I see your points about size, but I don't think it is a very controllable thing, nor should it be penalized. You can't expect to take a wild horse living on minimal requirements most of the time, bring it in, feed it well, feed the foals well and not see the next generations excel. Especially when they have a mixed background of breeds and some of those are quite large.
Just as the Kiger is versatile, so needs to be the Kiger market. I am waiting for some breeders to take Kigers with the perpencity for cow work, and breed for that; take Kigers with dressage talent and breed lines for that. Gosh, breed the ones that tend to breed small and get some sport ponies out there!
I know we can quickly get into the whole breeding for the "original" thing (which some can do too!), but realistically, the Kiger needs to be taken to the next level and appeal to a wide market.
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Post by kimk on Aug 18, 2008 16:43:45 GMT -5
I'm not just talking show points here, Michelle. I'm talking the horse like the TW mare you describe. I truly think that broodstock should have proven themselves as tractable, trainable, athletic performers, whether it be in the show ring, the cow pen, or out on the trail. It shows that the parents are good trainable horses who have accomlished something, rather than just a pretty horse producing babies. I also think that the 16+ hand horses should be left to the outcrosses such as yours. If you want a 16 hand Kiger, buy a Kiger cross. I have a real hard time wrapping my brain around 16 hand Kigers. It just ain't right to me. Again, my personal opinion. Kim
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Post by fantasykiger on Aug 18, 2008 17:21:19 GMT -5
Michelle.... I just want to say, I was very general with my statement, not getting into much detail. But I happen to agree very much with what you have mentioned in your replies to this post as well.
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Post by Michelle Clarke on Aug 18, 2008 21:26:32 GMT -5
I am enjoying this thread and did not aim my replies at anyone in particular - the size thing does get me though, as it is really out of ours (breeders) control. Just as if a sire/dam consistantly produce at 13.3 hand Kiger, breeders have no control over that than if they produce a 16.2 hand horse. Charro is 15'2, Madonna was 15'1. Her first filly is 7 years old and just 14'1. Next colt, Rev, 6 years old and 15'1. Next colt, Desi, now 16.2 and downhill growing again at 5....one more full sibling, Rico, 2 years old and now 15'2. I really don't have any control, except not to breed that cross again if I do not want size. Madonna was a freezebranded mare and Charro was wild conceived, so essentially Desi is first generation from the wild. Sage, another freezebranded mare, has a wild conceived filly (first foal) and she is 14 hands at 4 years old. Next filly, Tasa, is 2 years old and 15 hands (by Charro); Nova, full sibling, is a yearling and 14'2 - string tests over 16 hands. I am guessing that size factor is coming from Charro, so I would have to quite breeding him.
I just think the Kigers really have the size in their background and there is nothing we can do about it, short of only breeding ones that produce smaller foals. But again, then we are limiting our market.
Tiffany, I agree with you...a horse is only worth what someone will pay - no doubt! One of the things I think that can be better in this breed is learning how to fairly price our Kigers for the market.
Kim, I am with you...even the wild ones need to be handled and as you say, tractable. How could someone go about marketing a horse, like for instance the TW mare? Those intangables are sooo hard to explain to buyers, not to mention, everyone says the same things "nice, friendly horse, good temperment, great disposition, pocket pony, etc." How can breeders/trainers go about helping people understand the depth of those things?
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Post by angelsdream on Aug 18, 2008 22:11:24 GMT -5
I do agree that the kiger's have so much going for them - Michelle said it so perfectly:
"Kigers in general are underpriced. A super versatile horse, with soft gaits, great bone/joints/feet, sound, high immunity, natural resistance, easy to get along with, highly trainable, great teeth/mouths, likes people AND is pretty - come on. An average, amature owner can do a pretty good job with getting along with a Kiger."
You sure dont see many riding kigers for sale - people won't part with them because they are such great horse's, all around great horses.
I do believe people will pay for what they want. Regardless of show record - in my eyes, Id pay a lot more money for a horse that's been trail ridden and been out and used than in an arena its whole life and yes, I do ask about there parents, if they've been ridden and how there temperment is and how much they've been ridden. I like sire's and dam's that have been road and not just bred. You can tell a lot more from a horse once you ride them and demand more from them, rather than just handling them in the pasture. That's when the temperment really comes out.
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Post by desperatehorsewife on Aug 20, 2008 9:51:05 GMT -5
In my little world...I pay no more than $125, Kiger or not. No reason to spend more when I can get a nice, trainable horse for that price.
Kigers, in my mind, are like ostriches. You've got a handful of people interested. You get top dollar for a few years, then everyone who wants one has one...or a breeding pair, and there's no one left to buy the offspring.
Until Kiger owners get it together, work in unity and begin to promote as a whole rather than work under multiple registries, it's going to be difficult to convince the general horse public that it's anything more than a glorified mustang.
So...what makes a horse worth more than $125 in my mind? A horse who can be shown or a horse who's got enough training to keep my kid safe on the trail. That may convince me to spend up to $1000 (I adopted Sandy back for that.) But if the shows are upper level and the horse is highly competitive against other breeds, then the value increases in my mind.
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