Chinook in training

[DianneC]

I think maybe people are seeing the elevated head in the first picture? She has asked him to elevate his head in preparation for a canter departure, which is what he was learning. Its taught this way to shift the weight to the haunches. He's anticipating the next cue, a small movement back with the outside leg and a release forward with the inside rein. Its amazing to watch him lift his withers and flow into the canter. The lead is always correct and the power of it gives me a thrill.
The dressage whip is shorter and stiffer than many. Its used as a request for attention and not impulsion. I'll find out about the bit for you.
When I brought Chinny to NSAE I had seen their work with Cricket, who had developed into a witch with the gal who had purchased her several years before. The gal was too wishy washy then severe with her. She muscled up so beautifully and was so brilliant at NSAE. They adored her and even used her as their demo horse last year at their in-hand demonstration at the Albany Horse Expo. She's gone home now and is lovely and soft to ride the gal tells me.
I was thoroughly turned off by the kick'em, kick'em harder way I had been taught and really like the emphasis on communication and softness that I'm learning.

[kimk]

Dianne,
Like I said, he doesn't look particularly tense to me. Even in the first photo. I've always been taught that you want them to lift up into the canter, and that is what it looks like he is preparing to do. I'm glad you are happy with the way NSAE is working your horses. Wish I could afford thier training prices!! Too darned rich for my blood, but then if I had fewer horses perhaps I'd have more money?LOL
Kim

[Michelle Clarke]

First, Dianne, he is just such an awesome horse! How blessed to be able to put him in to such a great program - quite an ambassador for the breed!

The bit appears to be a Baucher. This is very popular amid the "classical" aficionados. While it does put pressure on the poll, it is used for flexions and relaxations of the jaw. Just like anything else, in the wrong hand it can be harsh, but if you know how to properly use any tool, it is only a benefit. I would not recommend this bit for people who do not know how to use it, or to begin to establish roundness first...

The bit follows a training method by Francois Baucher. Quite the controversy of his time (actually, his methods are still the topic of many heated debates!), but in my mind, brillant and well worth some in-depth studies if you are into this type of development of the horse.

Why are flexions of the jaw important? Because one cannot totally relax, and therefore, give a positive response to any task that is set before them without relaxation of the jaw. Just think about when you are tense, how the first thing to tighten is your jaw - it is also the last thing to relax. If the jaw is tight, the body will have a brace in it somewhere, which means somewhere in the horses' body is resistant, which then lends itself to compensation, blocking and irritation on the animals part.

Like Dianne said, this is first presented on the ground so the horse can concentrate and turn his mind and body over to the relaxation without dealing with a rider. This also makes this familar to them, therefore easier to go back to under saddle, carrying a rider and in freedom of movement. You will be surprised how many horses are so totally blocked, that they may have never even known what it is like to actually relax and respond postively to the riders requests. Doing this on the ground first, sets the foundation for the horse to go back to - without this, they have no where to go but into either fight or flight (or other established reactions), which is what they know naturally.

Remember that photos are just a moment in time. You are also looking at a horse that is at the very begining stages of this type of training, so there are moments when the horse will have to work through things or momentarily get upset - working on a canter transition, round, from the hindend with the forehand elevated (which IS proper!), can make a horse sometimes feel restricted (even though in actuallity he is not). But they need to work through these things and get better - that is what training is all about!

Oh, the small whip at the shoulder is used not only for reinforcement of the aides, but a lifting of the shoulders. If you are working on a canter transition and the horse moves off your leg well, there is no need for the whip on the outside to reinforce you leg. If, however, the horse drops his shoulder or falls onto the forehand, then the whip is needed on the inside. There may certainly be other reasons a trainer would utilize this tool on the inside...

[dazzlingduns]

Good explanation of Dianne's pictures and her trainer's methods. Different types of training methods are similar to religion. Some will be accepted and some will not.
I'll stick with the classical format for preparing my horses with slow accurate work , driving from behind, using seat and leg to move body parts independently, without the use of atrificial aids. Your explanation was validation for me on my chosen methods. A horse properly prepared will drive from behind and naturally lift the shoulder without extreme elevation of the head, and without the rod. In my world, if the horse is not capable of performing a simple upward transition to canter without dropping the shoulder, then there are holes in the previous training process, and the horse is not properly prepared for that maneuver. Love that last paragraph!
Melissa

[Michelle Clarke]

I tend to agree with you. I actually put my horses on the forehand for awhile lunging to loosen the back and allow the hind legs to drive further under the horse, lifting the abdomen. Lots of lateral movements for more strengthening and flexability, then when the horse is strong, we work on allowing the front to lift and get out of the way of that hind driving under.

I do utilize some of the flexions...also using alot of the tradtional columbian flexing too, which is very beneficial for alot of horses. This brings me to another thought though. The Iberian/Spanish type horses do need different training than say, a thoroughbred or a warmblood or even a quarter horse. They all have different strengths and weaknesses and not all methods work all the time to develop a well rounded, gymnastic horse.

I always have to caution folks who buy my horses to find a trainer (especially with dressage) that is successful in working with these type of horses, as they pose different issues and they can easily loose the natural collection that these horses possess.

I look at some of my horses here we are raising and I can see that some will have to use the above method (the QH crosses mainly and the ones out of the Hispano mare) - low work on the forehand to loosen and strengthen; while others will have a natural propensity to already come from behind and the front end is already "lifted" so to speak in natural balance. They just need some education.

I have found that the pure Kigers tend to get very bored with repetative work and need new challenges to keep the focused and interested - they thrive on it! I also expect even my young horses to stay between my legs and reins from day one...maybe expect is not the word, but I never let them lean or pull and from the word go, we develop that. Since they are all so different and agian, have so many different strengths and weaknesses, the Classical "training pyramid" never really worked for me.

Anyway, back to the main jist, some horses are just naturally elevated in the frontend and you can begin working from that point because working on it from the other perspective will just ruin their attitude and natural balance - which you will never get back 100%. You can see this in Chinook...his build already tells you elevated work will only benefit him. He has strength in h is back, his hind legs are more under him (meaning naturally come forward more than extend out back), his shoulder angle where his neck meets is more upward that out forward and his head sits on his neck high with lots of room in the throatlatch - it's all right there!

If you are ever interested in seeing this method at its best, get some Philip Karl dvds - pure beauty to watch this talented man bring these horses along in his easy going way.

[DianneC]

Hehe, his build when he started was very heavy on the forehand. He had an injury a couple years ago and tore one of his extensor tendons, that brings the hind foot forward. He was short striding on the left hind and a definite pasture potato. I put him in this training for rehab once I saw he was ready for it. He has not only regained full extension with his injured leg and muscled up beautifully but has regained his confidence, which was equally thrilling to me. The transformation has been amazing to watch.
The relaxation of the jaw is an important step, Chinny goes though an exercise from the ground with the bit to relax his jaw, to flex sideways and stretch fully up and down to open the spine. Then he has about 5 minutes of warm up exercises from the ground, all before being ridden. It was two months before anyone rode him at all while he learned the "language" of this method and how to handle his body. The head is elevated to keep the spine straight so that the loin and hind quarters have to be used properly and be strengthen by the work in hand, which involves a lot of lateral movement. He can't quite piaffe (trot in place) in hand yet, he's doing a counted walk (tiny steps, one hoof long) instead of staying in place). Its very hard work getting his back feet off the ground with them so far under him and his weight back - a couple steps gives him a release into a forward walk. There are no side reins used, he has to learn to carry himself in a balanced way.

The metaphor of ballroom dancing has been used and it fits pretty well. I don't think people who have a lot of time and effort built into another method would enjoy starting from scratch but its wonderful for the two of us.

[dazzlingduns]

I don't think people who have a lot of time and effort built into another method would enjoy starting from scratch but its wonderful for the two of us. **************************************************************************
I totally agree with you Dianne. Glad your chosen method works for you and your horses. What methods work for some, might not work for others.
Mt motto.......If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it. Simple as that.
Melissa

[DianneC]

It wasn't my goal to convert anyone, just to share the thrill of what we are doing.

[toucan]

Aug 15, 2008 14:18:19 GMT -5 DianneC said:

It wasn't my goal to convet anyone, just to share the thrill of what we are doing.

I'm glad that you are motivated and thrilled to be learning and doing. Please keep in mind that there is more then one way to skin a cat. I guess unintentionally got my dander up when you said " although for accomplished dressage riders it can be hard. The aids and the horses are both incredibly light." I stick by my belief that "light" is subjective and for what reason would an accomplished, knowledgable rider trained in classical form see the need to unlearn. I guess there are extremes to every thing and hope that you were speaking of the dressage rider that wants the pretty picture without really knowing the art of classical riding. I too hope they unlearn. Enjoy your journey!

Michelle, didn't I see the same word for word post from you on the E-Iberian board last week? Funny how generalities relate.

BTW, Dianne, glad that's it's your religion not mine. Looking at the website and training prices that offering plate is way too big for me. No wonder horses with no show record coming from there are advertised with such high prices.

[DianneC]

You took my message out of context I think Toucan. I meant that its difficult for anyone who is accomplished to give up what they know and try something so totally different. Not meaning any slight to them or you as a classical rider.
If it had been just for fun I probably wouldn't have started. But the rehab has been worth it alone. I'm not young enough to make a career of dressage, I hate to show anyway. But I like being able to communicate with my horse better and in a way that suits my temperament and Chinny's as well. I just wasn't satisfied with the way I rode, and didn't think my horse was either. I believe Cricket is the only horse listed for sale. She is a Kiger and I'm not sure her owner will part with her after all. Did you call NSAE to see how much she was? Last I heard it was $7,000 which is way too cheap for her, show record or no.

[dazzlingduns]

This is a bit long, very interesting, and well worth reading. I enjoyed it tremendously!
Melissa
************************************************************************

Once upon a time, there was a group of monks who made fantastic elixir from special fruit. When you drank the mixture, you could fly, and hear animals talk. The fruit only grew on special plants, and the process of brewing the drink was very detailed, and took a long time.
People came from far and wide to drink of the wine, and experience the fantasy. Some even stayed and learned how the monks made the drink. Others watched the cultivation of the trees that grew the fruit. And a very patient few stayed and lived with the monks to learn the entire process. For the monks said that for the fullest effect, the drinker needed to prepare his own drink.
Some of the students left after a while, taking seeds with them. They planted them and waited for trees to grow. But since few had been with the monks long enough to watch the growth of the trees from the very beginning, the well meaning students often did not recognize the saplings, for these special trees had purple leaves when they were mature, but the young plants were yellow. There were other trees that grew which had purple leaves from the beginning, and often these were the trees that were cultivated, and yellow ones were mistakenly pulled as weeds. Now when the trees came to fruit, the students attempted to follow the process to make the elixir, and it looked and tasted similar to the monk’s brew. But it lacked the basic ingredient, and did not give the drinker the fantastic ability to float. But the brewers had great faith in their product, and drank of it, and jumped up and down and said, “SEE I AM FLYING! MAYBE NOT AS LONG AS THE MONKS DO, BUT STILL, I AM IN THE AIR!” Others sat by their horses and imagined long conversations, but the dialog was one sided, and the horses unable to participate.
Sad to say, but some of the other students who had learned about the horticulture of the monks fruit trees were able to grow the right trees, but did not understand when to harvest, and in their impatience, picked the fruit too soon. Or if by chance the fruit was properly harvested, often the grower did not fully understand how to prepare the brew, so the results were still faulted. Yet across the land, there grew a large number of believers who called jumping in the air floating and insisted that they could talk to animals. And they developed a following of disciples who had never seen or tasted the real drink, and so they nodded their heads in agreement and hoped to someday experience this wondrous fantasy.
As the years passed, the monks began to pass away, and there were fewer and fewer members of the order left who knew the entire process. Those who did would occasionally travel out into the world and try to teach. But the students who came often did now want to hear that they had grown the wrong trees and go back to the beginning. Others did not want to take all the time that proper fermentation required, “as they had discovered short cuts” that seemed to deliver the same results. But they were all just satisfied with jumping up and down instead of flying. On the rare occasions that the fully trained monks were seen to jump up and then gently float to the earth, all who saw were amazed and impressed. But those who thought they already had the drink just figured that with a bit more practice, they too would float more slowly to the ground. They did not want to accept that they were wrong from the start. They did not want to give up their perceived success and go back to the beginning. They were making money selling “THEIR” version of the drink, and convincing the buyers that the results were good.
And even those who saw the monks float, found it hard to find a teacher to show them where to begin. And since then mostly had the jumping students as role models, usually they settled for the imitation elixir just like everyone else. And slowly the thirst for the real product died away, and soon no one could float or fly, and no one could talk to the animals anymore.
We are all so removed from the magical reality that the art has to offer, that we have no frame or reference, and most of us hardly know where to begin. We are lucky, there are a few masters still out there, but mostly that we have a wide spread band of WELL MEANING FALSE PROPHETS. The first step is to recognize the difference between jumping up and down and really being able to float. Then a rider needs to accept the commitment to succeed. If that degree of sacrifice is not possible, then do what you can, and accept that you will not make it to the top. And that is fine, so long as you do what is correct to that level. Good luck to each of you, and enjoy the journey. Even if you never make it to the top, you can savor each step along the way.
Have a drink on me.

[DianneC]

That was very interesting Melissa, thanks for sharing it. I'm pretty simple, my only goal is to enjoy the journey. One of the best lessons for me was doing circles and the half circle reverse back to the rail in a tear drop shape. Sounds boring, and Smoke and I did these years ago, but it was learning the nuances, the timing of the touch and release, and seeing the response improve that made me reluctant to get off the horse.

[fantasykiger]

DianneC..Your having fun with your horses and they look great. Your riding and from your posts you seem to be enjoying yourself, I think that is fabulous.

[Michelle Clarke]

Toucan, I think you need to check back because I don't post on the E-Iberian board very much (don't have time to read it much either lately!), and once last month it was related to working young horses and strengthening...not really related or word for word!

In fact, here is the post -

JP, can't watch those videos on my blasted Mac....but, a comment on working young horses.

Any horse that will be used as a performance horse especially, needs to be in a regular work program at 2 years old. This is when you develop strength in the bones, flexability in the tendons/lingaments and tone in the muscle. Now the exception of course is a horse raised on varied terrain and that travels at least 10/15 miles a day on their own - but this is not the norm usually here in the US.

Considering what I have learned over the many years in regards to biomechanics, chiropractic, muscle therapy and rehab - the horses that have been in some type of conditioning program from 2 years old, have always been the strongest and held up to training much better that their counterparts raised in a flat pasture or stall.

My husband has to be very careful with 3-4 year olds that come in for training that have been raised in stalls and paddocks with on physical activity. Their tendons are like dishrags, hooves are brittle and their backs are mostly very weak too. It takes just 3-4 weeks to get them into any kind of shape to hold up for training so they are not lame.

Always makes me raise my eyebrows when someone mentions taking young horses in circles...if you watch them from the time they are born, circles are a major part of their everyday activity! Foals run laps around their mommas from the time they hit the ground. Stud colts physcially challenge eachother much more then what we require of them! Even the fillies run and tussle with eachother throughout the day, pushing eachother in circles, backups and even sideways. It is when very very young horses are held into some kind of false frame and pushed beyond what their ability/agility is at that time that they can very much damage themselves.

If you ever have a chance to go see JP works his horses, you will get a wonderful eyefull (and earful!) as to the nuances of biomechanics and strength training, even with the young ones.
--
Michelle

www.ranchobayo.com/

[Michelle Clarke]

I am sorry to see this thread take the turn that it has. Dianne, THANK YOU for sharing the pictures of your gorgeous horse and letting us in on some of the things you are learning. I think many here are truly interested in the things you and Chinook are learning and love to hear about different methods - hence all the questions at the begining...I have studied many methods, some of these that you'all are working on also, and I was happy to see a thread where maybe we could have some good, honest conversation pertaining to some of the classical concepts.

It seems as if no one else has had anything constructive to add or share about thier method so maybe we all can learn something.

Sadly it turned into a debate and "my method is better than your method", all in demeaning undertones which is unecessary. This has shades of another list, which people come here to get away from.

I sure hope that this does not discourage others from posting what they are doing with thier horses. Kudos to Dianne for putting the time, money and effort into doing something with her Kigers and getting them out there for the world to see.

Melissa, you have done some great promotions for the Kigers and I have heard you have a nicely trained stallion that you demo, so keep on keepen' on! I am not sure what your point was with the story, but what I got out of it is that not many folks take the time to REALLY learn a method. That is the hard thing of it - how many people do you know that are really good at something? Not many put thier heart and soul into any program of any type and that is surely not the fault of the teacher, but the student. If the hunger was there to really, truely learn, then the student would excel - even if that meant finding another "prophet". I guess there are other view points in the story, but you would have to be of that mindset to get it.

I have the utmost respect for anyone who gets out there and tries - no matter what method is thier chosen one!