Sorraia article

[Michelle Clarke]

In the latest Equine Wellness Magazine...

Saving the Sorraias, an article about a preserve on the Manitoulin Island.

www.equinewellnessmagazine.com/r/toc.htm

[lindaf]

Good. I take that magazine also. I have read Hardy Oelke's book about the Sorraia and the Kigers and checked out his website. The Sorraia characteristics strike me as a goal to strive for. I notice that there are other Sorraia/Spanish mustang sites.

[lwood92]

I haven't been able to read the article, so the information I found may be listed in there. But, I found this link flickr.com/photos/myhorse/1573908340/in/set-72157602381625358/. This is the photographer that took the picture that is in the magazine (in fact that is the picture). She says that the first horse in the photo is a registered Kiger Mustang! She also has some other really intersting information on her website. Here is the link to that: www.myhorse.ca/horseoftheweek/2007/how20071015.htm

[lindaf]

Thank you for those links. Aren't the horses gorgeous? I know I'm going to spend a lot of time looking at the photographer's work. I'd love to see the Sorraia influence emphasized in Kiger management. Isn't it interesting how similar the different horses look?
Linda

[lwood92]

I would like to see that as well. This is a link on the photographer's website to an article that this breeder wrote www.myhorse.ca/images/2007-05-23.jpg. I found it very interesting. In one part is says that Mr. Oelke would like to see the BLM manage for more of the Sorraia influence, but they don't seem to want to do it.

[DianneC]

The stallion is imported from Germany and is Sorraia, the mares are Sorraia type mustangs, two from North Dakota and one Kiger, sounds like from Kelly's friend in Ontario. I would be interested in hearing what makes these horses so "Spanish". Is it the shape of the head? The size of the eye? There weren't any pictures that showed much conformation other than that. I have one horses that was briefly registered Sorraia Mustang before geldings were removed. That is Smoke. While Smoke has some interesting characteristics he is not the horse that Chinny is, or Cedar or Bravo either. I would like to hear what makes these horses so attractive to people. I understand the history and that they are primative, but I always want a horse that is usable.

[lindaf]

lwood92, I just wrote on another thread that I don't think the BLM has the will or the expertise to improve the Kigers. I think it will take the work of experienced breeders to pull this off, ones that have the breed's welfare foremost in mind, not short term financial gain.

Dianne, I haven't even begun to learn enough to speak with any authority, so this is just my opinion from what I'm learning. What intrigues me about the Sorraia type is their ancient genetic heritage, like a living relic, and their connection to the other Iberian horses and therefore to American mustangs. I've read posts about Chinny, Cedar, Bravo, and Smoke, but can't remember all their backgrounds. Do you think Smoke is not the horse they are because of different breeding or just coincidence? Is there evidence that horses with stronger Sorraia links are less usable? Like I said, I don't have enough knowledge yet to find this out myself, so I'm asking those of you who do know.

Linda F

[DianneC]

I can certainly understand a fascination for primitive horses and the desire to preserve them but I see these horses as specimens almost. Like the people who developed the Lusitano and Andalusian from the Sorraia I am looking for more substance.
My focus has been on a horse that has the conformation to make a great riding horse. Smoke was my riding horse and has beautiful movement, so I'm not saying that Sorraia type horses can't be ridden or that they aren't beautiful. But when you compare his conformation to Chinook's for the purpose of being a saddle horse Chinook wins hands down. That's just my opinion, doesn't mean I'm right.

[karismakigers]

lindaf said:

Is there evidence that horses with stronger Sorraia links are less usable? Like I said, I don't have enough knowledge yet to find this out myself, so I'm asking those of you who do know.Linda

Linda,

I have one Sorraia looking Kiger in my herd. In fact, Hardy happen to be driving down the highway one day and slammed on the brakes when he saw her in the paddock. I had heard about the Sorrais before that but I didn't know Hardy.

Jacareina has the ram's head, the long muscling, the light hip, the clean, flat boned legs.

The average horseman would not like a Sorraia horse. The ram's head (convex from poll down) should not to be confused with the draft head which is convexed from the eyes through the nose. i.e. Roman nose. Anyway, average horseman are "afraid" of the ram's head. They feel these horses are stubborn, hard to train, etc. It's an old cowboy tale. To most people, it isn't considered a pretty head, rather coarse looking. Of course most horse people are use to Morgans, Arabs, baby-doll QH, and the like. Only the Iberian breed owners and South American breed owners can appreciate the ram's head for what it is.

The average horseman feel that a horse must have a substantial butt in order to carry the rider's weight and last all day. Many of the horse breeds of Iberian descent didn't have overly developed rear ends; the Pasos, the Criollo, the Andalusian, Lusitano, Lipizaner, etc. The large butt is a fairly recent obsession, mostly with American breeders. Not only have our horses gotten bigger butts, but so have our cattle, pigs and sheep. Look at a Hereford from the 1900s and a current Herdford, other than color they have two distinctly different appearances. Modern breeds have much more muscle development than ever before. Back to horses, looking that the lipazaners that travel in the "white stallions" demonstration, there butts were actually pretty small. Big butt doesn't always equate to power or drive.

Some people say that Sorraias are weak in the rear. I don't believe that. Not having a butt that is muscle bound allows the horse to do amazing movements, their "aires" are much more expressive than say a modern day halter QH trying to do a capriole or levade...poor QH would certainly rip a bunch of muscles. Another way to look at it, you wouldn't see a super toned body builder in a marathon.

Sorraias are highly useable horses. Unfortunately, the typical horseman wouldn't find them appealing. When one has grown up with Hummers, it is hard to go back to a Jeep. ;D Sorraias are every bit as capable as any other horse, they just appear different. And different isn't always accepted.

Incidently, Jacareina with her ram's head isn't stubborn or hard to train. And she is delight to ride, so effortless is her trot.

Jillian

[karismakigers]

diannec said:

I can certainly understand a fascination for primitive horses and the desire to preserve them but I see these horses as specimens almost. Like the people who developed the Lusitano and Andalusian from the Sorraia I am looking for more substance. .

Hi Dianne,

Funny you should say this. ;D The Kiger could be viewed much the same way among typical horseman. A specimen of a primitive horse to be preserved, but not used or promoted in every day equine activities (ranch work, dressage, endurance, cow work, etc.).

I know that isn't what you meant, but a simple substitution of the breed gives you new perspective. As you want more substance than the Sorraia offers, the typical horse-owner is looking for Kigers that have a bigger butt, taller, prettier heads, longer necks, shorter hocks, ______(enter aspect here). It is a common cycle that occurs as people get involved with a "new to them" breed. They want to bring aspects of their previous breed and added it to the new breed of their fancy. For example, look at Morgans. The Morgans of the 1970s look nothing like the typical Morgan today. Old style morgans had a broad head, full neck, heavy shoulders, short coupled, short strong back, medium rear end and were short. Today's morgan is more like a saddlebred with the narrow refined head, long refined neck, somewhat longer back, higher tailset. New breeders entering the Morgan breed started developing a line of Morgans that were more expressive, more refined, more flashy, and that line started winning in the shows and the rest is history.

Change in the breed is inevitable, but we can try to retain as much of the Kiger characteristics as possible and preserve the breed so that in 20 years, the Kiger can still be recognized as a Kiger.

Jillian

[lindaf]

I suppose we can infer that if the typical horseman would not find Sorraia characteristics appealing, breeding Kigers that retain those traits would not be beneficial for most professional breeders. However, that should not exclude others from specializing in Spanish-type blood lines.
Linda

[karismakigers]

lindaf said:

I suppose we can infer that if the typical horseman would not find Sorraia characteristics appealing, breeding Kigers that retain those traits would not be beneficial for most professional breeders. However, that should not exclude others from specializing in Spanish-type blood lines.
Linda

True, most don't find the similar characteristics of the Sorraia in the Kiger as appealing. There are a few Kiger breeders that have the sorraia type, that are continuing to preserve them, just as there are Kiger breeders that are continuing a more modern Spanish type and still others that are breeding for a modern, QH type of Kiger.

The question becomes, in the name of improvement, how far is too far?

Jillian

[sonrisa98]

I guess it comes down too, do we want the Kiger too look like the original Kigers that were found on the HMA's or do we want 3 different types of Kigers like there are 3 different types of QH's.

Sonya

[Michelle Clarke]

I would guess the confusion begins with the begining of the Kigers. Do we have good enough pictures and information on the "original"? How can we know that the standard was set true to type?

Then you have two other aspects: they are wild and we have no control over in how they reproduce themselves. So if we want the orginal type, aside from trying to control which horses go back out, how can we assure that from the herds? How can we assure no crossovers or loose ranch horses or this tough inferior stallion breeding good mares - we can't.

The "type" is an ever evolving situation, not a set standard that the wild ones follow. We cannot get them to conform to our wants. That is problem number one.

Number two: people have different opinions and views in what they want in a horse. I belive each breeder has their own goal that they breed for. Some don't like a large muzzle, so they don't breed large muzzled horses that may have 5 other desirable traits and breed the small muzzled horse that may not be the best breeding quality. Big butt, small butt; heavy horse, lean horse; one type vs. another. It is inevitable.

There is always a group that wants to preserve what is seen as the "original". Then some want a more versatile animal; a show animal; a stock animal and the list goes on. I don't necessarily think this is a bad thing. Each breed deals with it and there is really no way to stop it. As we are already familiar with, if you don't like it, go out and start your own group or registry!

The big question is, how to handle it? Back to the registry.....well, they will need to accomodate. A registry has a very hard job of trying to make all the members happy and that is near impossible and I don't envy that job at all!

I belive that even in a set Breed Standard, there is (or should be) room for variation and that should be embraced by all members in a breed and not looked down upon.

[DianneC]

Here is something that may be of interest. This is Shadybrook's Tia, born on the Kiger HMA in 1982. She was adopted at age 11 so she was returned with the best of the herd several times. She is 18 in this picture taken in 2000. She only had three foals in captivity and I have two of them. She is one reason why her son, Chinook, is my stallion in order to continue these older genes. This may shed some light on what at least one of the early horses looked like. You'll recall that the Kiger HMA is where the highest requirements for type were managed.
I straightened the picture so you could see her top line better. She was standing on a slope which is why she looks a little camped out.