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Post by kigerfan on Mar 19, 2012 17:10:55 GMT -5
I did a search looking for a topic on this but couldn't find one. According to AQHA people, Foundation bred has to do with the amount of TB in the animal's lines. There are two 'foundation' registries because the two foundations couldn't agree with the allowance of one TB. One foundation calls him a foundation sire and the other says a TB is a TB is a TB and that he is not. Appaloosas have a 'foundation' that seems to be in the works but they still allow many outside breedings and Appaloosa appears to be more a color than a specific breed. They still allow breeding to Arabians, QH, and TBs.
So here is my topic.... Right now, we all have what would be considered 'foundation' stock. There are many people that are out-breeding to other breeds in order to get more of the characteristics they are looking for in a horse. Will there ever be accepted out-breedings to other breeds in order to 'strenghen', 'enhance' the characteristics of the Kiger breed? If so, will there then be a 'foundation' registry as there is for Quarter Horses? Would this breed need that sort of out-breeding in order to keep it healthy, or are there enough Kigers in the horse world to keep the breed healthy as a breed?
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Post by kigercat on Mar 20, 2012 0:20:18 GMT -5
I doubt it. With all the mess about the "found" horses I can't see any of the registries bringing in other breed blood.
Also as far as I have heard the studies done have shown there is enough genetic diversity.
Comes down to people, when they breed, need to breed the best to the best. Not just be breeding cause it has a uterus and balls. Always strive to be improving the breed,
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Post by Michelle Clarke on Mar 20, 2012 7:19:11 GMT -5
The Appaloosa breed is a color breed or at least it has turned into one. Years ago they promoted a brochure on "How to breed for color". They allow those other breeds because the registry was trying to get everyone to breed Appy studs to whatever mare they had in their backyards in order to up registration (and color). There was no rhyme or reason for what breeds were picked.
Adding other breeds is a slippery slope. Firstly, it would be a HUGE argument as to what breeds would be allowed - be it back to stock types or Lusitano, Andalusian, Sorraia etc. Secondly, honestly, it would take away from the breed itself. There are many factors to consider but one way to look at it is this: the QH breed still allows Thoroughbreds - why? Because of racing and profit, bottom line. Pure Thoroughbreds can attain PUREBRED PAPERS if they win so much $$ at the track - what's up with that? now they are allowing excessive white markings so you have QH's looking like minimal sabino paints - if folks keep breeding those together, sooner or later, you'll have paint spots. You can look at five different QH's and see five totally different horses - no uniformity at all.
There is more to this than I have time to share this morning - big rain here last night and would be betting on my barns being flooded and a busy day in front of me...
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Post by horses4ever on Mar 20, 2012 14:35:16 GMT -5
Honestly even if they would accept it, I don't think you really should out-breed them, unless they're becoming inbred too much. Because by adding other breeds you would be taking away what makes a Kiger a Kiger... That's just my opinion though
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Post by vaquero7x on Mar 20, 2012 16:27:41 GMT -5
Hello, In my opinion, one breed that could benefit the kiger horse with out altering its characteristics is the working Lusitano in particular, the Veiga bloodlines. Those horses have been selectively bred mainly for bullfighting and they are extremely athletic and courages. I believe this would only happen if the breed was too in- bred or did not show any improvements in the future in terms of athleticism and conformation. When a breed becomes popular, all kinds of back- yard breeding starts going on.
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Post by Michelle Clarke on Mar 20, 2012 18:25:22 GMT -5
While I have to agree...the perfect horse to add in would be the Veiga Lusitano. One thing hard about that is that those bloodlines are not for the average bear! The good thing is the work ethic, as you mentioned. Kigers natural ability is to survive - this means conservation of energy. They have not developed over generations as a saddle horse, whereas the Lusitano has. Ours seems born to be ridden and have a job - very different from any other breed I've worked with.
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Post by sbutter on Mar 21, 2012 16:29:37 GMT -5
As far as I have heard, the kigers have enough variation in their genes to avoid a bottleneck. I don't know when this study was done or what particular population was tested. That would be the only reason I'd want to add something in as a "kiger." I am curious to see what the current economy is going to do to the breed over the long term. Not a whole lot of breeders are breeding, which is a good thing. I think the number of kigers will drop some in the next 10 years or so. However, it seems like they are picking up over in Europe, so that will develop into another breeding population. If I were concerned, it would not be the number of kigers out there, but more of the actual breeding population. Technically, there eventually could be a bottleneck even if we had 5,000 kigers out there. It all depends on how many kigers were contributing to the gene pool at the "lowest" point of population (actual breeding kigers that passed on genes). If the economy were to get worse, this would be more of a concern for the breed.
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Post by Michelle Clarke on Mar 21, 2012 20:45:58 GMT -5
If I am remembering correctly...and jump in if you know...they had a cap on how many mares per year a stallion could breed - and I forgot what breed. Was it Thoroughbreds? That way the gene pool was not so limited. I don't think we'd get to that because of a horse being popular per say but maybe because there are only so many folks doing AI or making their studs available to the public more. Steens Kiger foals were massed produced, so that is why his lines were so prevalent for so long. I wish there were more Steens Vaquero, Sundance and Chinook breeding horses around.
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Post by MustangsInNC on Mar 21, 2012 22:15:48 GMT -5
The only breeding son of Sundance that I know of is still owned by Roger Debaere in Washington. I heard that he is going to start showing again, and he has a Dundee bred mare that he will be breeding to him this year. And the only Chinook son I know of is Mojito. Are there more out there? And I don't know of any by Vaquero...
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Post by kigerfan on Mar 21, 2012 22:21:17 GMT -5
Firefly is by Sundance out of Springtime and Bolero is also by Sundance out of Springtime
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Post by horses4ever on Mar 22, 2012 14:51:13 GMT -5
I do have to agree with you guys. And I think the Kigers are safe unless foals are mass produced by one stud. I got to thinking about it, and good examples of mass production and lots of crossing are Paints and Appaloosas. Because with them, paints really are just quarter horses with white, and appaloosas are turning into the same. And quarter horses are mass produced.. And mostly only have thoroughbred blood, with arab waaaaaaaaaaaaay back.. And the most mass producing thoroughbred for quarter horses was Three Bars. If you look the pedigree of any paint or quarter horse, almost all of them trace to him at some point
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Post by sbutter on Mar 22, 2012 15:17:27 GMT -5
I am not entirely sure if they have a cap for TB stallions (there could be but I doubt a stallion could really reach it). I've seen books up to 180 mares and with stallions doing dual hemisphere. Their lifespans are shortened by huge numbers of mares, especially if they are dual. So, I think the fact that some stallions really get cranky with the sheer number of mares and their heath are the main dictators of what the farm does. People only want spring babies and there is only a window that mares are in heat (doesn't help that they tend to all have the same cycle if they are together). Some TB stallions literally breed every 2 hours around the clock, just so they can get all the mares covered. That is also a great way to limit the book, because you learn what the stallion can and cannot handle. Anywho...lol
There is Bolero and I think Denise has one Sundance colt left. Last I heard, she thinks he is stallion quality (last she saw him) and would like an amazing home for him. Bravo Canyon is by Chinook and Dianne still has Blue. Tyee is either by Sundance or Chinny, can't remember, but he is in Nevada.
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Post by horses4ever on Mar 22, 2012 15:54:10 GMT -5
Lol that is true. But also with thoroughbreds half of them get put down at a fairly early age
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Post by nrly on Mar 22, 2012 17:43:14 GMT -5
Jim (my Hubby) is so loves the look of those out of the Steen line, ans so as i was reading this I went and looked at the papers we have on our Kigers and all of them are out of the Steen line, now I will have two studs out of that line, Riddle, and Nugget...and Stormy, and Mira are also out of the Steen line. what I love about the ones I have is that temperament is fantastic. and that is what I want.
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Post by DianneC on Mar 22, 2012 23:46:39 GMT -5
I think if there is a bottleneck it will come in the wild. we're still working on some crosses between the Charro and Chinook lines, which should be pretty cool, including the upcoming Mojito and Calista foal. Blue has Steens Kiger, Steens Vaquero and Chinnok in his line, hope he throws foals like his dad did.
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