Kiger necks

[stacy]

Possibly a dumb question....but where do these necks come from? It doesn't look like domestic bred Kiger stallions have necks quite like this.

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[Michelle Clarke]

Stallions store fat in their necks, plus the higher the level of testosterone, the more "male" characteristics you will get - such as coarser hair, wavy hair and heaviness through the shoulder/neck area. Conformation has something to do with it, also can be a metabolic issue. When I am picking horses, I tend to stay to the ones that are naturally leaner - mainly because of Insulin Resistance and other metabolic stuff...that is genetic and passed on.

The Kigers seem to me that they are getting heavier, as managed by the BLM. I did not find many this go around that were very Iberian or even tending toward Spanish. I think I've mentioned this before but many people are attracted to the "stock" type horses because it is a look they are familiar with. Since this type of horse is not intended to be so heavy, some of the traits getting chosen are more draft type and have more metabolic issues. I really foresee metabolic issues being bred into the herd because of traits being chosen. This is a huge concern. Many folks at the adoption did not like the older guy aka "Fabio". I like him BECAUSE of his leaness, versatile build. Many of the other studs had IR written all over them.

You don't look at a truly Spanish horse and think "Man, he's built like a brick $*%+ house!". They should be lean and elegant looking with the athletic ability to be versatile; meaning could do dressage, jump or a variety of western events.

I know some will disagree with me...my point is not to put down any horse one way or the other. My point is that we are losing Spanish traits; creating horses pre-disposed to metabolic issues and limiting our market base in a big way. I am happy that a lot of breeders don't produce horses with these issues - there is some hope!

Sorry...probably more of an answer than you wanted!

[hhf40]

Michelle,

I agree with you. I wouldn't sell Elly at any price, and everyone here has always wanted me to breed her. But I have not because of exactly the reasons you mention. She is such an easy keeper that when I have grass, she is either in a dry lot or in a stall 16 hours a day. If I leave her out, she gains alot of weight and her neck would look like that stallion above. Just too easy of a keeper. And she has a huge QH butt on her. Not supposed to look that way. But with her training, disposition, and smooth gait, she is my #1 trail horse. Now Reed is nothing like that. Reed is a much better example of a good Kiger mare. Tempest, the mare I sent to Germany, was the perfect Kiger mare. Refined, elegant, much thinner build.

Bill

[mystickiger]

Michelle, your last paragraph is spot on. I also think that the horses are being managed for a heavier stock type, probably more marketable due to familiarity of the QH. While the gathered horses were of course beautiful, I personally was not jumping on the bandwagon that they were the best in a long time. Most were very heavy, particularily in the front end IMHO. I agree that IR is currently prevelant in the breed and showing itself in the wild. Short necks and slightly steep shoulders is part of the Kiger breed. This bunch took it a step further as far as I am concerned. Alot of beautiful horses to say the least. While it doesn't matter, just not my taste.

I have always said that if I were to breed, I would look at bloodlines directly related to horses from 93 or prior. A few of the horses from current adoptions still exhibit those traits though.

Stacy, you and your guy are truly amazing with what you have accomplished in such a short time. Keep it up!

Bill, I have to applaud you! Elly is one of the sweetest, most docile Kigers I have ever met. She has a ton a heart too. But you are a realist in recognizing that while those are great attibutes there is more involved in a decision to breed. Reed is a very nice mare but very much a stock horse. In fact when she was here exhibiting in PA, many people wanted to know why there was a QH in the Kiger breed demo. Pretty girl for sure; not my idea of typey though. And yep, totally agree about Tempest.

[hhf40]

Karen,

I agree with you on all counts. Reed could hold her own in a good QH halter class of mares. Beautiful, but not the perfect Kiger. Elly is special. I have owned and sold 25 or more Kigers. Elly has sold over half of them for me. People see her and simply want one. But she is totally non Kiger in every way except her disposition.
Obviously, these horses must be very thrifty out on the HMAs, so I would not be surprised to see these thick necks on these Kigers after being in captivity for a few years and eating grass. But to see them right off the range really did surprise me. I had selected a yearling stallion from the catalog before I ever went to Burns. He was 1227 and I liked him because he was one of the very few that I thought still showed alot of the elegance and refinement of the "old" Kigers. He reminded me of the Kigers from the 90's.

Bill

[michelle77]

Just a thought, I would imagine all horses have some level of IR some more than others and I would think wild horses have little problem with it because of the wide variety of native diet. Then when brought into captivity they are typically fed concentrated feed and dried hay which them becomes concentrated as well and they will start to develop problems with IR. What I am trying to get at is that maybe the Kigers in the wild have started to change areas in which they graze and perhaps new areas with different grasses that are causing these issues. Does the BLM manage or seed any other areas that the Kigers are exposed to that could cause a change in diet (exp. plant rye)? I know some land management for example like Yellow Stone they will set out food for the elk and what not during the winter seasons to help the herds survive. I know the Kigers bring in a lot of money so it would be in there interest to keep them fat and healthy looking. The conformation is changing in them I am sure mostly due to who they gather up and remove from the herd, but we also know diet can very much change the conformation and look of a horse. What do you think?

[Michelle Clarke]

Michelle, I do agree with you - that they should be able to handle sugars in grasses and they can. I had to laugh when I had a top Holistic nutritionalist come out to look at my herd; she said I had to take my MUSTANGS off grass or put grazing muzzles on them. Really??? Personally, whenever I see a horse getting some IR signs, I up their barley to at least 50% of the ration - that usually fixes them up. Another thing for metabolic issues is Coconut Oil. From the research I have done, it says the coconut flakes hold the same properties, which is easier to feed. I have not run a challenge test here to see if that holds true or not.

The processed feeds does not only stress the body, but the manufactured sugars in them do cause issues - far different from the natural sugars. I'll mention that vaccinations have a lot to do with it too but I know how hard of a subject that is. High protein diets can also be an issue because if too much protein is fed at one feeding, then the unused protein turns to sugar. Corn turns to sugar in the blood stream too.

Protein balance is tough because they need it for growing, foaling and in training - it all has to be in balance. The key is for the owner to recognize the changes in the horse daily and adjust feeding - yes, daily. I recently was looking on a breeders website and all of the horses were thin boned, small jointed and no muscle. Their foundation horses all had good bone and nice joints...so, the problem is not enough protein for the mare even before she births. The bigger problem is this can become genetic over a few generations if it is not caught and rectified.

Okay, getting off subject. Michelle, I think the balance with the wild horses is two fold. One, if you have a good year with lots of rain, you'll have IR issue popping up but they should not last long because soon you'll have an off year where stuff is scarce. I think the main problem comes back to putting out those heavy, stocky horses that are more likely to have metabolic issues. Many breeds have developed these issues due to how they are fed and picked for breeding. A lot of "baroque" breeders have the thought a baroque horse is very round everywhere; well, not only did they pick stock with metabolic issues but overfed them so they appeared round essentially putting in issues that may not have been there.

Wild horses should have strong bone, big joints, large feet but be lean muscled for ease of travel. Human intervention is choosing to keep the heavy ones which, in my opinion, will eventually lead to not only metabolic issues but structural changes in order to hold up all those heavy muscle - such as the big front ends we are starting to see. Since Spanish horses should travel uphill (and be built that way), by breeding the heavier horses, we are going against not only the whole "Spanish" concept but making it harder to have a naturally collected horse and putting them structurally on their forehand which will eventually lead to lameness like we see in the QH's.

[DianneC]

they did open up some gates in the last five years so now kIgers can be seen from the road to the overlook. but there is no real difference in the grass, but maybe more of it. the real difference is in who gets put back out. there are other attributes being lost as well, coat color and frosting for example but the necks have been around since 1999 when I got into the breed.

[gotkiger]

speaking of who was put back. the red dun 2 year old stud colt that didnt get adopted at the adoption and was then released before the internet adoption (i think 1224 was his number). to me he looked leaner then a lit of them, please correct me if I am wrong. but I also thought that the red dun mare was also a bit on the leaner side. I dont have a catalogue and dont have their pictures anymore so i am going off of memory.

[Michelle Clarke]

Sarah - good memory. I liked both of them; I thought the young red head mare should have been turned back out.

[gotkiger]

ha ha that is funny she is that one i wanted if i was able to get a mare and I already am putting my name on him for the next time around... 1224 is mine!!!!!

[sbutter]

I think it helps that a lot of kiger breeders have been around for a while, so they got started with the earlier adoption horses. The question is now what will happen as the current horses keep getting added to the market. There were some nice "stock" kigers at the adoption and some of the ones that were put back. I would love to take a trip out and really see what is still out there. Personally I feel like I am learning more and more each year about what really should be valued (depending on what is common in the breed). I really like nice "large" joints and a square build with natural light muscling. There are quite a few with small joints and "thin" legs. I really feel like I am noticing more and more variation in the breed. I don't know whether this is just because the breeding game has changed or just because we don't have those household name kiger stallions that breed a large number of mares each year. I really do like a nice neck, but especially look for kigers that "arch" their neck and tuck their heads when they are excited or playing with something. I think the major tendency is just keeping their head and nostrils parallel to the ground. (I don't see one shot out of these Luso boys where their head is "up" with nostrils parallel like I am finding to be more common with the kigers www.lusitano-interagro.com/sale.htm *click on album photos*) That's probably been naturally selected in the wild, but doesn't really make it good for riding. I am kind of keeping a mental list of what seems harder to come by in the breed.

[sbutter]

Head more up...



Head more collected


I also like to see them trot comfortably with a lower headset every so often. I know the "tracking trot" seems to happen more often with stallions when they trot and sniff the ground at the same time, but I have seen kiger mares do it as well, but not that often.

[citykid]

IMHO - your big problem is lack of movement. You have taken a "genetic system" of an extreme athlete needing to move 20-30 miles a day ....... it can eat all the "sugar/carbs" it wants to and stay supreme. Cush life of no more worries (or less worries) and 3 squares a day - problem.
Now, you have the ever so good willing, middle age women, with still raging "come to the rescue mom" instincts and she will kill the horse with kindness by overfeeding.
Educating the market place to keep your breed from getting a bad rap is necessary.