Spanish horse movement/conformation

[sbutter]

Wow! Lovely filly

On your grulla kiger mare, after she adjusts and has all of the "care" you have planned for her in the next year or so, what do you think she will look like in comparison to the photo you posted? Nesa looks like she transformed compared to the first photos of herself.

For Spanish conformation, what would you like improved on your grulla mare?

Also, I am assuming there are different schools of thought on spanish conformation i.e. modern vs classic. How are they different and how would it effect the direction kigers should head for spanish conformation?

Again, thank you for spending the time on this thread!

[Michelle Clarke]

Gotkiger - I think this mare would make us all feel like that. That is a very special horse and something to hold as a goal with the Iberian horse. She just raised the bar a little, that's all!

On the older mare, Raz, I would would like to see her more relaxed in her back so her shoulders could free more and her head can be carried higher - which would be more natural to her conformation. I think she tends to keep her neck sucked down some to relieve her back. Spinal tension can result from emotional stress as well. When the cord shortens, the bones of the spine adapt and follow the cord. The shape of the spine reflects the relative ease or tension of the spinal cord. I think her movement will flow better once this happens and her whole body will soften as opposed to looking so angular now.

I would ideally like to see better angle of the shoulder and hip for sure on Raz; though it will be interesting on how much that changes once she relaxes and gets some bodywork. Oh and a good hand taller in a perfect world!!!

[Michelle Clarke]

First, maybe we should seperate Spanish as opposed to Iberian. In most other countries, when you talk about a Spanish horse, you are referring to the Andalusian in Spain. They are considered THE Spanish horse.

This is a summary of what is considered "Iberian" breeds:

"The Iberian horse is a title given to a number of horse breeds native to the Iberian peninsula. At present, 17 horse breeds are recognized by FAO (2005) as characteristic of the Iberian Peninsula.

Three are Portuguese, the Lusitano, Sorraia and Garrano, and the remaining 14 are Spanish. These include the Asturcón, Burguete, Caballo de Monte del País Vasco, Pura Raza Gallega, Pura Raza Española (Andalusian horse), Hispano-Arabe, Hispano-Bretón, Jaca Navarra, Losina, Monchina and Pottoka, as well as the Cavall Mallorquí, Mallorquina and Menorquina (subsets of the Balearic breed).A spinoff from the Sorraia, the Marismeño, has also been identified living in Doñana National Park, but is not on the FAO list."

Okay, now the Spanish Horse:

"The Andalusian, also known as the Pure Spanish Horse or PRE (Pura Raza Española), is a horse breed from the Iberian Peninsula, where its ancestors have lived for thousands of years. The Andalusian has been recognized as an individual breed since the 15th century, and its conformation has changed very little over the centuries...."

In the USA, only do we have such a variety when we speak of subjects like this and have 20 different breeds that all fall under the "Spanish" umbrella. Whether "new and improved" or "old and original", it is misleading and confusing. Consider also, many have different types of conformation. So, while Spanish is considered a breed, Iberian is considered a type (again, everywhere but here!). It would be more correct to say different breeds are Iberian, not Spanish unless they are an Andalusian. That, however, will never change in the states.

I only bring this up because the goal with the Kiger should not be to breed the "poor mans" Andalusian, but rather a unique breed with Iberian type.

Okay, separate out what is Spanish conformation as opposed to Iberian conformation. Ideally, they should be one and the same; in fact, they are not. I don't want to get into a lengthly debate on that but rather the main differences. If we consider the Spanish horse as the Andalusian, then consider that when Spain outlawed bullfighting the horses began being used for carriage driving. This means they became prettier, calmer, fancier stepping and the conformation did change for a period of time. Once bullfighting became such a popular tourist draw in Portugal, Spain went back to it. While some lines have stayed closer to the bullfighting conformation, many had deviated toward the other. Wouldn't you know it, but when Americans began buying Andalusians, guess what lines they wanted to get rid of... Guess what the US market was dumped with... You got it, the carriage lines. Not that we didn't want it! Folks were drawn to the fancy stepping, long haired, sweet horses. We got what we wanted for sure!

So, now this is the example we have in America as the Spanish horse. Weaker backs, as they began not being used so much for riding plus it had to change in order to get that pretty front leg action; straighter shoulders; front leg conformation moving more forward for lift (but harder to put a saddle on); hind end moving out behind the horse instead of under to carry a rider well. Just notice the flatter croups on them.

On the flip side, take the Iberian breeds (which is a type): they have been bred to be ridden working horses. This is where the saddle horse conformation comes from: easy to train, comfortable to ride and built for longevity of usage. What of those three traits is NOT desirable??!!

This has always been my longstanding argument with the Kiger breed standards. We are following something that is not only incorrect in theory but in fact when we say our horses are Spanish. Yes, they do have some Spanish traits (meaning similar to Andalusians) - liked hooked ears, straight shoulders, front legs placed too forward and downhill. BUT, are any of these traits desirable? These should be bred out simply because they are of no use as a saddle horse; surely not in the breed standard!

The Iberian traits they do have, should be focused on simply because it is of more use - plain and simple. Built uphill; front legs centered in the shoulder for strength, balance and saddle fit; topline longer than under line; straight back; sloped croup for balance, drive and comfort of rider - basically, LONGEVITY OF USE! This is why the Iberian type should be looked at and focused on; it is in the herds and you have to look closely in the last few generations because it is slipping away. When folks see horses with croups and hips like my older grulla mare, they think weak or light -when in fact, not only do they not understand the dynamics of it but they don't consider that true Iberian horses don't have heavy muscling genetically, they have to be worked to build that up. Honestly, a wild horse should not be heavy muscled either for efficiency of movement and covering ground - plus it takes a lot more protein to feed that muscle. Another thing that should be stayed away from in breeding the Kigers it the tendency toward insulin resistance - which can be seen in many of the horses in the last roundup; but that is another thread and another link to the Andalusian...

And the hooked ears? Who cares! That comes from when the Arabians were used to expand genetic diversity in the Andalusians!

And for those who like a more stock type build - you can get that with more Iberian traits. Just look at the Azteca - not the American Azetca (first generations anyway), look at the good Mexican Azteca that adheres to strict breeding guidelines and does not use QH mare that are even build downhill! I'll find some and post here later...

Okay, Sarah, you asked for my opinion and you got it!

[sbutter]

I don't mind using Mojito. I was trying to avoid "specific" horses and keeping their IDs somewhat a mystery in regards to photos. I was going to ask Michelle if she wouldn't mind sharing her top picks from the adoption, that way it is a more positive thing and less of a "I don't like this horse and here's why."

Thank you for your opinion Michelle Next question is where are you basing this info off of? Is it personal experience and other info you learned over the years? How do you think your opinions stack up to other Spanish horse breeders?

[Michelle Clarke]

Sarah...remember, most of what I am stating is only opinion but it does come from a wide variety of areas. I don't consider myself an expert, but I do have a lot of experience in function following form. Firstly, one of the biggest areas I draw from as far as "saddle horse" conformation is years of training and riding tons of different breeds. We had a big training facility up in Chicago and worked with an average of 300 horses a year. Besides Eric and I, we had two other trainers plus did clinics a couple times a month. At any given time, we had 20 horses in for training. I was able to first hand not only see but ride many different horses from all walks of life. We had everything from backyard Paints to horses slated for the Olympics (to be started under saddle or to fix "issues").

I bred and showed Arabians for awhile and later we started having many Andalusian (PRE) breeders bringing their horses in to be started or training for exhibitions. That began our own breeding program with the PRE's. In addition, I trained and showed Paso Finos with my husband (his family had imported a half million dollars worth of breeding stock from Columbia). I not only learned about gait, south American training styles but began learning about bloodlines, conformation and how it applied to the Paso gait. Pasos' basically have one type of footfall - just at three different speeds; conformation (and brio!) play a huge role in if a horse is Pleasure, Performance or Fino. I learned a lot about the "heart" of a horse and what that means with this breed.

I've had the pleasure of conversing with top International breeders/judges/trainers/vets involved in the Spanish/Iberian breeds over the years plus a lot of ones considered "Baroque" such as the Friesan (which we worked with a top importer/breeder for many years). I have many connections with some of the top farms all over the world when it comes to the Lusitano especially. These are people I can freely inquire about this or that and trust their answers. The Lusitano stole my heart a long time ago and I spent years and years studying them and riding every one I could get my hands on. I still think the Kiger as a whole has more to offer...for many reasons (another day!).

I have an extensive book collection, many outdated/out of print plus videos from all over the world of different Spanish/Iberian farms and shows. I never go by what one person says over another in many instances; I am the type of person that will look at every angle before I form my opinion.

I also have over 15 years of doing bodywork: chiropractic, stress point therapy, accupressure, osteopathy, saddle fitting and worked with some top alternative farriers over the years. Not to mention bit makers from Columbia, saddle makers (one of whom lived at our stables in Chicago and built his own trees)...so I know a little about how the body works and what conformation faults cause issues in the long (or short) run. We seem to always be involved with folks on the cutting edge of their trade; there are a lot of names I could throw out that have been at our barns whether for training, saddles, therapies, etc. When we set out to learn something, we always start at the top.

I know that folks like a "resume" before they qualify someone....I sure don't like to talk about this stuff though, I feel like I am boosting. So, this is it in a nutshell. Again, these are only my opinions and experiences, so take what you like and toss out the rest!

[Michelle Clarke]

Sarah, I'm not sure how my opinions stack up with other breeders. I've been told I have an eye for good horse flesh (an expensive eye!). Each breeder has their own goals. Some are focused on breeding for competitions, so their goal would be breeding to stallions that are doing well in the ring at that point; or breeding for certain traits that will give them a "look" that is currently the craze. Plenty are focused on color while some are stable blind and breed their stallion only because it is their stallion...I sure don't claim to know all their motives. I think it is rare though, that you find a breeder interested in what is best for the horse as far as longevity and a forever home; which entails much more than flashy movement (which is usually coupled with a hotter character!), the perfect color or big caboose!

Obviously, all breeds have a type and that is important but only part of the package. Trainability and function should not be passed over if a horse does not have hooked ears. This is the downfall of many breeds.

This is a fun example I just came across yesterday. Guess this breed:






That is a purebred Lusitano. There are a few things right off the bat that I would discount this horse for and geld him instantly - such as his HUGE head, too thick neck and the sabino gene (tell me if you did not breed him to enough sabino mares, you would not come up with pinto spots in a few generations!!). BUT.....the picture is at a weird angle, however, he has a nice strong back, uphill, great croup, balanced legs and good, natural muscling. He may be a total sweetheart and easy to train. If he threw those super traits and you bred him to the right mares and the foals were better than him - why shouldn't he be a stud? Why should he be denied breeding papers over a picture perfect stud that was a crap to deal with and threw less quality foals? That is much more common place than giving this boy a chance. Now, if I did not have the mares that nic'ed with him or if all his babies had the huge head or poor character, he would make a fine gelding.

[Michelle Clarke]

I'd rather not use specific horses...I think that after reading through everything you can surely look at them and decide for yourself. I will say something about thick necks though. If the thickness comes from the bottom part of the neck, that is usually an over development due to being an emotional horse, management or riding/training...holding the neck up instead of hanging it.

If it is cresty on top - that is mainly diet. Feeding a Spanish type horse the wrong foods or letting them get fat, causes this type of neck. This is usually associated with thyroid or insulin resistance. Also, they store fat up there, so many times even when they loose weight again, this pocket is hard to get rid of. My gelding, Rev, has a weird crest. I have let him get too heavy in the past but not fat enough for that much of a crest. Coincidentally, this past month, I have had to give a clients horse a certain antibiotic (made for cows mostly) because she has an infection in the joint of her hock. Her neck is swollen and bumpy due to these injections. She is a thin horse but lately I noticed she is developing a small crest - even though this injury has caused her to loose weight and we are fighting to keep her looking anything but skinny. I thought it very odd but then I remembered, when Rev was so ill years ago, A&M put him on this same drug. He actually started leaking out the shot right after I gave it after the 10th day and his neck was bumpy and actually turned brown. I am betting now that the medicine put that crest up there too. Yesterday was the mares 12th day on the meds and her neck began to seep it out while I was giving the injection. So her body rejected it too. We are now on alternative therapies as of last night and I can't even believe the difference. This is not my horse or we would have done this from the beginning - this is a last resort to the owners in lue of putting her down (which still may be an option, I've never dealt with an infection in the joint cartilage before).

[DianneC]

This is such a great thread, I know I'm going to be coming back to it a lot.

[sbutter]

All of this has been very helpful for me as well. I am also happy you shared some of your background with us Michelle. It really helps us grasp the whole picture and where your coming from. I know I will be thinking of some more questions and will probably use some more photos (that can't be ID'd) like the ones I used before.

[gotkiger]

ok so here is a question. Legs... short or long?

I have ridden Kigers and other breeds with very different length of legs and each horse is different in their movement and smothness of gait. In comparing horses with similar breeding I have noticed that a lot of their movement seems to come from genetics. All the offspring and grandchildren of one Kiger Stallion in particular that I have in mind, have been horrific to ride, especially at a trot. While I have not really found that in many others lines. Should this be something that, in looking to develope more of a saddle type horse, we breed out and avoid all together even if the mind of the horse is the best you have ever come by?

[citykid]

...trotting - is so over rated !!!!! (tee hee). I would think the legs need to be in a relative range of proportion / angle to rest of the body ...... length of neck and back in relation to leg length is what you might want to ponder.

[DianneC]

Shoulder angle plays a big part, the straighter the shoulder the rougher the ride. I think that conditioning plays a part as well, although not as much as shoulder.

[sbutter]

I asked Michelle a similar question before and she pointed out that everything needs to be proportional. The horse should not appear to have short legs with a long body. Ideally the spanish horse should fit into a square. If looking at babies, you want to have a leggy baby, even to the degree of a baby that is taller than its length.

The angle of shoulders and pasterns will play a large part in comfort and soundness of a horse.

[Michelle Clarke]

Great answer Sarah! Since legs don't grow up too much as a foal develops and the body does grow significantly longer, you do want them to appear very leggy as a foal in order to end up with a proportionate adult. This can be breed specific as a recent article I read on breeding Peruvian Pasos' said they want " little daylight" under the horse (so a longer horse compared to a square) - this was for their optimum gait...which is head up, back dropped - however - since horses gait by locking their back, they are a smooth ride and don't bounce the rider.

It is really not so much of length of leg but how the whole horse moves. Once again, if you have the head up, back dropped and legs moving just up and down - the trot will be horrible. Take this same horse, get the head down, back round and hind legs coming further under the body and the trot will magically smooth out. Don't mistake just the head down meaning a smoother ride - you have to have the whole thing working.

Obviously, some bloodlines will tend to move one way over another; such as more of head up and back down over more naturally forward movers. This does not necessarily mean conformation but could be emotional level that brings the head up and tense body. The best would be to not start out with breeding such a horse because even though the foals would move better with the right training (or right mares maybe) - not everyone finds the right training along the way. Breed horses that are the most "user friendly" from the get go as you can.

B...must get you off that TB and onto a Spanish horse!!