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Post by sbutter on Dec 11, 2011 20:23:53 GMT -5
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Post by citykid on Dec 11, 2011 22:45:30 GMT -5
Sort of on conformation - Dr Deb Bennett website someone linked a 45 min horse disection / history on a 4 year old racing TB. Absolutely - tremendously informative .... and for those of you facinated by genetics; the last 5 mins is interview with genetisist (sp?) who has discovered the gene found in all the top $$$$ winners.
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Post by Michelle Clarke on Dec 11, 2011 23:02:08 GMT -5
Real quick...the video of Hipo - he was injured in his hip as a foal so his backend does not flex as much as it most likely would have and like his five foals we have here. With that said, the last time I saw him ridden, about three years ago...he was incredible and quite something to see. As JP says "He is an artist in his own right" and he is. JP asks for certain movements then lets Hipo express himself within them - something to see.
The last video listed, the grey colt is either dropped in the back - which lets his front legs have so much expression or locked which is easy to do with a short backed horse. Though he does express the flexibility and elasticity as Sarah mentioned, that Spanish horses should have. Interestingly enough, later in the video, the brown horse that is being ridden is totally locked up in the back too, so I am thinking more training than the horse itself.
I'll have more time tomorrow to look at the others...great thread Sarah!
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Post by Michelle Clarke on Dec 12, 2011 7:23:22 GMT -5
First video of the farm and horses being shown mostly in carriage: they don't show a lot of the babies but you can see typical shorter movement that happens as they begin to grow and get older weaning age and yearling. Movement goes to pot for awhile then in most cases. Mostly they get short and bouncy. Shoulder movement especially changes from babyhood to adult. I think since these horses are bred geared toward carriage stuff, you see a lot more up and down movement instead of forward drive - it is fancier and not only hard to ride under saddle but not very useful for saddle work. With this farm it is really not that bad - where you really see more of this is with the Andalusians. They very much have more lift in their steps instead of forward and driving. Physically, usually these horses have straighter shoulders; they tend to dip their back which allows the head to go up higher, front legs to lift and the hindend goes up and flat and then the hind legs pump up and down trailering behind. Again, not so bad with Lusos, mainly Andalusians (we'll talk about that more later).
The second video...LOVE this mare! Classical Iberian movement! Her hip drops and flexes at the sacrum allowing her back legs to come far underneath her and pull herself forward. This drive brings the front end up and allows the shoulder to not only lift but reach forward. Because of the length of her humerus, the leg can "unfold" as she comes up. The angle, however, is a little open; I would like to see more angle between those two bones. With some training, this mare would really be able to have more lift - which she is slightly lacking. She should be bred to a stallion with more shoulder action and hopefully she would put that hip on those foals.
Her dilute foal is a nice combination with better shoulder movement, especially considering he is at that age where movement goes south for awhile. The filly - sign me up! I would snatch her up in a heartbeat. She has her mommas drive with a much better shoulder. Her back legs look like she is peddling a bicycle - they reach under and come back evenly and in a circular motion - excellent! Her front legs come up, unfold and reach up and out - wow! Hopefully they keep that breeding going because that mare and stallion really nic.
The black stallion video...typical Andalusian. Hard to see a lot of his conformation but I do like his shoulder angle and how the neck sits more atop the shoulder than comes straight out of it. The rest is hard to tell but he looks like those legs pump up and down - even though I know that is what they are working on, I generally think his movement tends toward this. Typical Andy back, kind of dips in the center with the hip then sloping upwards. The hip angle puts his back legs out behind and I doubt even if he had the right aiding system for the piaffe (which he does not with this whack-a-horse guy) that he would be able to sit and piaffe in place correctly and not have to motor foward in order to keep movement going. He seems to have the typical straight croup of the Andalusian, which reminds me of the Arabian background; they kept this conformation in the lines in Spain because after bullfighting was outed for awhile, they used the Andalusians for carriages so they got prettier, easier to handle and fancier movement. I know when people think of Spanish horses, they tend to think Andalusian but I find it hard pressed to call it normal Spanish conformation/movement. If you look back at the other Spanish type breeds from long ago, they tended more toward the Lusitano type, which is more usable for under saddle. Funny though - many Andalusians in Spain are getting back to more usable riding conformation but you don't see that trend here in the US. US breeders tend to stay toward that fancy movement because that is what they like; they've even developed Saddle Seat classes in Andalusian shows which is big money for ex-Arabian trainers...another story anyway.
Let me see if I can find a good piaffe video to compare then we should discuss some of the conformation points that make for good movement.
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Post by DianneC on Dec 12, 2011 22:54:32 GMT -5
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Post by sbutter on Dec 12, 2011 23:45:51 GMT -5
Why did you tell me that Dianne! I did a google maps search to ease my mind that they probably lived really far away, but 2 1/2 hours is pretty close for how fun and educational that would be! For further explanation, if a horse is dropped in the back or locked, is it something you can visibly see when the horse is standing? Does it have anything to do with a more swayed back look as age and heavy riding sets in? Do you think kigers are even capable (eventually) of this kind of movement? I have seen kigers with a noticeably different way of going that I just assumed was more of a dressage type, but not quite the same as that Luso mare and her foals. How often do you notice that circular/bicycle motion in the hind legs with the kigers and how important is that? Are there any drawbacks to this type of movement or can a horse still be a good all around individual (cutting, dressage, reining, driving, etc)? Thanks for taking the time to do this Michelle  |
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Post by Michelle Clarke on Dec 13, 2011 8:13:29 GMT -5
Having their back locked or dropped (or both!) are different things. A locked back can be a physical reason or a brace from training, saddle fit, etc. A dropped back is physical and again, can happen for many reasons - genetics being a big one. Saddle fit, rider position, training methods, etc affect this. The spine only has so much movement up and down; and they tend to arch down a lot easier than upwards. If you are starting out with a back already having a tendency down, then bringing it up is all the more difficult. Here is an example of what I call a dropped back...there is a TON of issues with conformation here, especially when considering this horse as a riding partner, but focusing on his back, see how it is lower than his hip? Imagine a saddle placed on his back and what that would look like, not to mention how it would pinch his shoulders and in front of his lumbar. Forget a western saddle here - an english one would be hard enough. You also have to make sure you get one shaped underneath like his back - what I call a banana back saddle, where the tree actually dips down instead of built straight.  If you just look at his shoulders, you can see how heavy he is there as compared to his hip. No, he is not "light in the hip" as it where but because of his build, he finds it much easier to travel on the forehand, therefore, his back end is not developed...at all. This guy would bounce the fillings out of your teeth at a trot for sure! Carriage horse deluxe here. In comparison, you see this horses back is lower than the wither and flows nicely into his hip, making it comfortable to carry a saddle and rider, not to mention being able to round up his back.  There are things over time that can cause a nice back like this to drop. How horses are managed is one. A horse that is fed hay in high hay feeders is an issue; a stallion that is kept in an area where he has his head up over the fence all the time in an unnatural position (especially while pacing); bad saddle fit, bad riding, etc. etc. All of these things cause the back to drop and it is really bad to happen while they are young and developing as there is no turning back at that point. Why is it important that the back be able to round up? Simply for longevity of use. A horse is not built to carry weight on it's back, so the strain must be taken off of the skeletal system so the muscle protect the wear and tear of bones, tendons, ligaments and very importantly - joints. It is also more comfortable for the rider as the trot smooths out and flows forward instead of up and down. It is not "collection" as it is used - this is simply roundness which every horse and every rider doing any type of riding should know. More later... |
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Post by DianneC on Dec 13, 2011 21:07:12 GMT -5
Wowser, who is this?
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Post by Michelle Clarke on Dec 13, 2011 22:34:20 GMT -5
I know this is a Lusitano stallion, I believe in the UK. A locked can happen for many reasons and it basically is because a horse keeps their back in contraction. Many people think when they see a horse that has a lot of leg movement and the back is stays still, that this is desirable. While this is more comfortable for the rider in some cases, this is damaging the horse, especially the spine. The energy from the horse should start in the hind end and move forward through the back and into the front - a wave of motion. Conversely, gaited horses gait because of a contracted back. That is why lazy horses don't gait well because they are even too lazy to lock their backs! These horses are made to move like this genetically and it does not do the damage it does to a trotting horse. Even so, you see a lot of gaited horses later in life that have spine issues and also tendon and joint problems because of this. When your eye begins to get trained to it, you can see a locked back even when the horse is still. You know you recognize it in people - a general stiffness from the back; it is the same with horses. I will have to get a video of the older grulla mare, Raz to show. Even standing still, you can tell her back has no "energy" or life in it. Her lumber is totally locked up...you can really see it when she moves. Sarah...I have seen a few Kigers with this movement. We had a gelding here that would really drop in his hind end and pull himself along, lifting the front end. He was neat. It has been my experience in the Kiger breed (maybe not so much recently) but the more stock type horses are liked best. I think this is because it is what is most familiar to folks picking out not only horses to adopt/purchase but what is getting put back out. Maybe because of what they were buying the Kigers for - ranch work, western type events, trail riding, etc. but I tend to think more of because that is what "look" is more familiar and what they know. I've heard many people say about the Spanish type Kigers how they are "light" in the hind end or not well muscled. This are typical Spanish traits - they genetically are not heavy muscled and need correct work to get there. I personally think they are being culled under wrong thinking. Many stock type horse do not have the flexibility for the suppleness and versatility that the Spanish horses have. Think of a body builder versus a swimmer - I'd take the swimmer over the other any day of the week. It gets down to what private breeders are choosing as breeding stock and what their goals are. The big thing to remember is that these horses are evolving out in the wild for survival - for travel, extreme conditions and adaptability. They are not selected in the wild to be a riding horse - that is up to us. The Kiger has the ability to be the next great saddle horse; versatile, large health constitution, smooth riding, adaptable and very bonding. There is a huge gap that needs to be filled in the horse world and I think that the Kigers can fill it. The Lusitano is quickly becoming a rich mans game and now they are concentrating on the higher end Dressage Queens so they are breeding the horses differently - more to compete with the warmbloods and not so much as a versatile saddle horse. This of course, is just my observations...  On the flip side of all of this is the fact that a horse that moves like that mare would make many folks nervous while on top of them! A horse with a locked back and even moving on the forehand is much easier and familiar place for a rider to be - it is what they are used to. Riding a horse that is pulling themselves along with the hind legs with the back loose is a whole lot of motion and power. It is like driving a muscle car - the drive from the hind end can be intimidating, coupled with tight steering with a light front end - WOW for some folks, scary for others! I like the WOW. |
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Post by DianneC on Dec 14, 2011 0:43:23 GMT -5
Would this WOW movement move the rider more from side to side as well as up and down at the trot?
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Post by Michelle Clarke on Dec 14, 2011 6:55:12 GMT -5
No side to side, the movement is back to front and gets higher on one side then the other at a trot, more circular. It works on your core and until you get in shape for it, you will be sore! You actually feel like you are really moving around but visually, you have less movement because you are going with the horse. Side to side happens when the horse in not using his back and the rear legs are bouncing. Just watch the videos from Mexico with the "dancing horses" and you'll see that in extreme. www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ojC_ERklpM&feature=relatedExtremely locked back on diagonally gaited horse: www.youtube.com/watch?v=9R_hE0ryYvE&feature=related |
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Post by citykid on Dec 14, 2011 11:05:47 GMT -5
Loving the REALLY CLEAR examples - better than most I have seen; non horsey people would even be able to understand and see the difference. Would you happen to have some WOW video(s) of horse(s) moving correctly - the kind that will be be ok into old age from being exercised correctly ?
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Post by Michelle Clarke on Dec 14, 2011 12:21:45 GMT -5
Funny...I have not even found ONE good piaffe video to show yet! Here is a Luso stallion that has the potential for the WOW. In the first part where he is unsaddled, he seems somewhat stiff in the lumbar. Once he is being ridden at the trot, you can see a few times he tries to motor forward with some nice roundess (you can see his hindend actually drop a bit) but the rider always checks him! He is a great example of the bicycle trot in the hind end though - his legs come forward and pulls him along instead of pushes once the leg is under or behind like a Thoroughbred or Arab. His canter is really flat and he is missing a lot of roundness there. There is a good shot from behind when he does a lead change and bounces to the side some so he may just not be strong enough yet with the rider at the canter. www.villadoretiro.com/ingl/videos.php?pag=videos_animais&video=slider/vencedor/video_02&nome=Vencedor%20do%20RetiroThe Retiro horses are very nice and they really do a great job training. Most people like to show more polished videos of their horses so it is hard to find "works in progress" as I would like to show for example. One way to quickly notice if the horses back is locked or not is when it is relaxed, it looks like a wave of water underneath the skin along the back and hip - very fluid. I have a VHS tape of some awesome riding and training but have no idea how to get it up on line... |
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Post by Michelle Clarke on Dec 14, 2011 14:20:05 GMT -5
For comparison...here is just a random video of a Quarter Horse. I picked on doing "dressage" just to be similar to the others. www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYa4iABZNScA few things to notice. The back is stiff, is it locked or is it because of training? It can be either but most likely it is genetically not very flexible due to the amount of muscling along the spine. QH's are able to carry more weight due to this and they have been bred this way. Lack of suppleness along with eventual degeneration of the back muscles is what happens. Many QH's as they age, become more and more swaybacked and loose muscle; I'm talking of the ones with riding careers, not pasture potatoes. They also tend to break down early in life. I like this video because not only does it show a pretty average scenario of training/riding, so many people can relate but you can really see the lack of flexion in any joints (front legs/shoulder and back legs/hips). The legs kind of swing out and back from the upper joints. Also notice the power of forward comes when the back hind legs are just about to leave the ground (right after they are underneath the body). This is a pushing motion instead of a pulling motion that is more typical with the Spanish/Iberian horse. |
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Post by Michelle Clarke on Dec 14, 2011 14:33:41 GMT -5
Drawbacks of that WOW movement...what comes to mind first is that a Spanish horse hits the ground with the whole foot flat. Thoroughbred/Arabian types hit heel toe, therefore covering more ground. You'll see a lot of QH's with this movement also, which is useful for running down a cow or winning at the race track. If you want high end speed events, you don't want Spanish movement.
The other drawback is what I mentioned before as far as people not being used to it and it being intimidating. I can't tell you over the years how many prospective buyers have ridden a horse like this and been scared. If they do get ahold of one of these horses, they tend to hold onto the face a lot, which gets the horse locked, head up and legs only going up and down instead of forward.
Just like any breed, there will be people who breed for more of the stock type Kigers, those who will breed for the more versatile and then those eventually who may breed for the more dressage movement. I think the key is "mediano" - medium. Keep them versatile enough to be good at any sport or pleasure they do. Don't breed them too hot or too lazy; don't take too much movement away and don't breed too much in - in general.
As far as physical, the way Spanish horses are built to move in itself creates longevity; especially as long as they are allowed to move naturally.
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