Sooty and dun

[Michelle Clarke]

Okay, carrying this over from the ChaCha thread...

The red filly, Maggie, that is down some, clearly appears dun factored. The links are broken for the farms but it mentions that her dam is bay; could it be the dam is a dark dun w/sooty? Wish there were more pics and some of the dam.

The 2004 foal by Delmaytion Top King, a so-called Bay Morgan foal further down, is another questionable one to me. Here is the stallion - wish better pictures...

www.angelfire.com/anime/williamsfarm/king.html

If you keep scrolling down the first page of foals, there are even more that appear to have real dun. As far as remarks on no tail frosting, even though they have hard line stripes that do into the tail and that red foal surely looks red dun to me; when you have sooty, you don't get frosting most of the time, so that knocks that out.

Many of the so called look a likes, may have pedigree colors mismarked, very common.

[barbhorses]

The stud looks like a sooty bay to me. I think it possible that some of the horses could have possibly had a dun parent and was mislabeled, however, you can't get away with that reasoning in breeds that do not even display dun factor, but do have counter shading.

I can't wait for an actual dun gene test to come out. That will end a lot of this guessing.

I also think it interesting that Dr. Sponenberg mentioned that chestnut horses when shaved will often display a "dorsal". However, that doesn't make the chestnut a dun horse. It could be the way the sun hits the hair or the time of year. I like how in some of the remarks that horses that could easily be mistaken for dun have their owners informing us that in fact the horse doesn't keep the "dun" markings year round. Which, any dun horse wont change like that. Victoria's markings haven't improved or degraded or areas being dark one year or time of year being different than another time of year. Even when body shaved. She still has the same markings. Some markings become more clear when shaved, but you could still see them before I shaved the hair. For instance, her cobb webbing is never quite this clear when her head isn't shaved (possibly due to the fact that her hair appears silver when winter hair is shaved off):



Weak dorsals with dark legs and no other real sign of dun factor save a weak dorsal is a sure sign of a light counter shading IMO. I know that if Victoria foaled a horse that ended up as black as ChaCha or Loba that I would say that Victoria has one dun gene and that this foal is just black. If she foaled a bay with a little counter shading then I would still call it a bay. A stud a bred her to in 2004 was a bay with some good counter shading. My mother kept trying to call him a dun, but he was clearly a rich copper bay with sooty genes.

Here is the copper bay with sooty:

[DianneC]

It doesn't take much of an eye to see a hard edged dun dorsal from a soft edged sooty only one. Regardless of body coat color, that is the definition of dun to me.

[Michelle Clarke]

I am sure your horse never grows a winter coat either. Many real duns get fuzzy dorsals or leg bars disappear when winter hair comes in. This is especially true with duns with cream and sooty duns - the stripes can get mottled with changes of season. Does not mean that they are any less dun.

[barbhorses]

Michelle, getting snarky is never the answer (I should know).

What I think is the difficulty here is telling a true dun from a false dun aka a horse displaying counter shading. Like I said, I am going with the color expert here (Dr. Sponenberg) as he has obviously studied the subject not just in viewing horses in person, but also in their genetics. He is saying that he highly doubts that your dark grullas and dark duns are actually true duns and unfortunately (would be so easy if the dun gene test were finally here), the only way to prove the good doctor right or wrong is to experiment and see if you can get a typically colored zebra dun or grulla from a "dark grulla" or "dark dun" bred to a non-dun mate.

Michelle, I am well aware what a horse sporting dun factor looks like in the winter. I have owned my grulla mare for 10 years now.

I think that counter shading is being mistaken for a true dun here. Dr. Sponenberg is thinking along the same lines from the photos I showed to him of "dark dun" and "dark grulla" Kigers. Which the photos I showed to him were of the horses pictured in the last color discussion as well as linking to him a photo of a BLM Kiger at the adoption and of course sending him the link of ChaCha. He didn't consider any of them to be true dun factor horses saying that it wasn't just a lack of a true dorsal, but other factors that the dun gene modifies in the coat that wasn't modified in the individuals presented.

[Michelle Clarke]

Firstly, no snark was used. Secondly, I really take offense to you sending off pictures of my horses and using them to fuel your fire. I don't know what your angle is but I don't appreciate it.

Thirdly, the way you present things is a big turn off to a lot of people that may want to join in the discussion and that is what this is about - not just you proving the opposite of what everyone else thinks.

I see my horses, I know my horses and regardless of what any expert says after seeing a few photos - it is my opinion and I am entitled to it. Right wrong or indifferent.

In the ChaCha thread, I never mentioned color - so you took it upon yourself to start that whole thing just to stir things up AND to send the link to Dr. Spondenberg. I surely respect the man but I don't think he would appreciate being thrown in the mix every time color comes up on this board.

[stormyranch]

I agree wholeheartedly Michelle. She sent pictures of Dino to him too, to get his opinion. I know what her angle is; she wants to get us into a color arguement so she can say "why do you care so much when you say your not a color breed?"

From: "Sponenberg, D. Phillip" <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
To: Kimberlee Jones <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 11:55 AM
Subject: Re: Color

well, most if not all duns have a "tan" shade to the color, rather than being really red. In addition the heads are usually darker than the bodies. And they should have some striping on the legs, as well.

A lot of optimists that are looking for duns get pretty excited about these linebacked bays – but they don't tend to reproduce it!
--Funny Dino as reproduced it 3 times.

This is what Kim wrote to Dr. sponenberg about me and Dino

I know of a Kiger owner who has a bay stallion that insists that the horse is a dark dun and reproduces dark duns. All I see is a copper bay that has produced more bays. lol Some have counter shading and others don't. However, because the horse is a Kiger it is of course a cardinal sin to say that the horse isn't a dun (even though the owner proclaims to not care about color...).

[Michelle Clarke]

She actually sent him the last paragraph? He must think we are all looney...

Anyway, if you notice in the email that was sent back, words are used like most, usually, some and don't tend to. Not exactly solely conclusive. There is always room for variation.

[stormyranch]

Yes she did and yes I did notice that. He IS only one opinion. I am sure I could find some expert that would say the exact opposite. Thats what makes for good discussions.

[barbhorses]

I am not sure Kiger people realize this, but you all come across badly if a horse is not dun. I mean, on the Kiger FB page there was a person or persons (can't remember who the names are, pretty sure it was just two people) who had an absolute fit that there were bay Kigers! On top of that, you call a black Kiger or a bay Kiger on this board and many people are at your throat! I also didn't actually forward photos, I sent links. So, no copyright issues infringed.

My angle here is to find out if I am right or wrong. I realize that there is a Kiger person out there who has it out for me and is spreading information around as though this person knows me (only met this person briefly back in 2003 and this person hasn't a clue who I am and sends out slanderous emails which I am able to refute when people forward them to me) and that has a bad flavor in your mouths about me or when I was "Johnny on the spot" years ago to tell you all what a Kiger is genetically and what it isn't. No one ever asked for the opinion, but I gave it anyways. Obviously, now I only mention information pertaining to the subject and I don't go off giving information that may really offend that wasn't asked. So, please stop thinking that I have some sort of wicked agenda, because I don't.

"I am sure your horse never grows a winter coat either. " That is being snarky. Not appreciated.

If you notice in my wording that I also said Dr. Sponenberg is leaning toward the horses being line-backed bays or blacks. The link you have for ChaCha proclaims that she is a dark grulla. In order to expand my knowledge base and see if I really was being totally blind like you all proclaimed or missing a piece of the puzzle, I consulted an expert. The expert (who no doubt doesn't give a solid opinion as he hasn't seen the horses in person which makes perfect sense as I do that all of the time when people ask for my opinion on a horse's type) is leaning towards that you all have blacks and bays with counter shading. Thus, I am sticking to his opinion until new information comes about that changes things.

Stormy, you have linked foals from Dino that are "dun" and they all look like bays with counter shading to me. You will also notice that his wording is "tends to" in other words, not an absolute. So, that gives room for Dino throwing his counter shading to his foals. Which by the way, I think that Dino has a really lovely color regardless of the fact that I believe him to be bay.

What boggles my mind is why calling a bay or black horse in the Kiger world a bay or a black actually CAUSES such an uproar! Why?? Bay and black horses are often some of the most prized colors!

[stormyranch]

'but you all come across badly if a horse is not dun."
So Kimberely, what are you saying here? All Kiger owners all over the world come across badly?
I do believe that Michelle doesn't care if her horses are dun or not. She has the most beautiful horese and only half of them are duns.
Why do you continue to post on this board? All you ever have to say is the opposite
of what someone else is posting. Or you start a fight.

[barbhorses]

Good idea Stormy. Let's find more experts and see which one says that they are carrying dun factor. Mind you, the person has to have the same qualifications: expert in equine color genetics.

[stormyranch]

Duh

[barbhorses]

I don't try to start fights Stormy. However, some of my posts are turned into fights when my angle was gathering information or trying to get people to think about something a different way. Clearly, I am lacking in skills to get my objective done if you think I am trying to actually start fights.

[Michelle Clarke]

Really, I mentioned your horse not getting a winter coat because you are in California - no snark there.

Free your mind of boggles because the simple fact of what causes an uproar is that we know our horses, see them in person and have first hand experience on what color they are or are not. Honestly, what is it of your business if I want to say my horses are part unicorn too? You are the one that brings color into every thread you can. "Nice bay colt" " Lovely black mare". What gives? When you post picts of your horses does anyone say "nice non-Spanish mustang"? Come on.