Marsh Tacky horses

[dunbnwild]

Anybody heard of these guys? Kind of interesting...some look Spanish.

www.marshtacky.org/index.php

[grullagirl]

I have heard of these guys since i used to live in Virginia. They are believed to be of spanish descent and are often gaited. They generally get no bigger than 14HH and are really rare. I have never seen one in person but they sometimes remind me of the Florida Cracker horse just a Carolina version instead LOL.

[barbhorses]

Those horses actually have a gait that only they perform. I agree that they are most likely a Spanish breed, but in some individuals you can see Arabian and some pony mixed in as well. Being that there is no such thing as a pure Spanish horse, I am content in saying that they are mostly Spanish with some other breeds thrown in. I am unsure what their DNA says though. Would need to give Dr. Cothran a call to ask. I stand firmly on establishing a Spanish population requires genetic analysis confirming a dominant presence of Spanish markers and frequency, the majority of individuals showing old Iberian conformation, as well as establishing a logical history of the area and how those Spanish horses got to that location. Without all three of those components, then I am not comfortable in saying whether or not a breed is Spanish. So, for these guys, I will say that they most likely are Spanish by breed (going based off their looks), but I would give room for those other two components to say whether they are for sure.

[DianneC]

Interesting horse, very nice with many similarities to the Kiger and other Spanish breeds. Its easy to say Arab influence, I don't see it. I see something more like the Dulmen horse, a primitive breed that may have been involved in producing many different breeds.

[barbhorses]

d**n, I can't find this one picture of a pure Tacky with a dished head. I have known about the Tackies for years now and have appreciated them for some time. I haven't done any research on them for a while, but it is my understanding that Arabs were in the SE which would explain the Tacky with the dished head and more Araby appearance. I remember when I first saw the picture and didn't believe it was a Tacky due to the obvious Arabian influence and only later discovered that it was in fact a pure Tacky. From conformation points, it appears that the Arabian has only lightly influenced the Tacky, much like the draft horse has only lightly influenced the Spanish type Sulphur.

[grullagirl]

It is possible that they do have some arab influence. Arabs and thoroughbred were heavily imported to the Carolinas and Virginia starting in the 1700's, those horses became some of the foundation for the Quarter Horse. Spanish barbs and spanish horses were also imported but never really described well in the pedigrees i have seen. I've also noticed that the jibbah is extremely dominant in breeds influenced by the arab. The arab blood could go back hundreds of years and a horse could still show some arab characteristics. The arabian and the old spanish horse breeds really tend to stamp their descendants for many generations. It is also possible that these guys bred with Banker horses when they were still roaming Coralla. That would explain their size and possibly the dished head since the Bankers to me resemble more of an arab than any spanish breed.

[barbhorses]

I agree with you there! Spanish Mustangs can commonly have a jibbah. I haven't noticed that with Kigers, but you can absolutely see the Arab in the Kiger. I just had a random thought... being that the Americans and English (which whose presence and cultures dominated the North West) heavily imported the Spanish influenced Canadian breed. I wonder if that is where the Kiger got some of its spanish influence?

[Michelle Clarke]

Dished heads come also from inbreeding - not just Arabian influence. There is usually a much bigger picture than appears, especially when it is all speculation anyway. I never quite understood the complete obsession with trying to prove ancestory ~ they are what they are and we should be looking towards the future and not getting pre-occupied with the past.

Sure - the Kiger got it's Spanish influence from some Canadian breed (in fact I think I heard Leza say "Ya, hey dere" the other day to Mari to which she answered "Take off you hoser!").

[dunbnwild]

Aug 16, 2011 18:56:10 GMT -5 @barbhorses said:

Those horses actually have a gait that only they perform. I agree that they are most likely a Spanish breed, but in some individuals you can see Arabian and some pony mixed in as well. Being that there is no such thing as a pure Spanish horse, I am content in saying that they are mostly Spanish with some other breeds thrown in. I am unsure what their DNA says though. Would need to give Dr. Cothran a call to ask. I stand firmly on establishing a Spanish population requires genetic analysis confirming a dominant presence of Spanish markers and frequency, the majority of individuals showing old Iberian conformation, as well as establishing a logical history of the area and how those Spanish horses got to that location. Without all three of those components, then I am not comfortable in saying whether or not a breed is Spanish. So, for these guys, I will say that they most likely are Spanish by breed (going based off their looks), but I would give room for those other two components to say whether they are for sure.

You've made this point a few times, so I'm curious, why does it take all of these components for you to feel comfortable saying a group (or breed) of horses has Spanish characteristics or influences, yet all it takes is one dished face photo to be comfortable saying a group (or breed) of horses has Arabian characteristics or influences?

[Michelle Clarke]

Don't forget draft...

[grullagirl]

I don't really believe the kigers have been influenced by arab blood. The reason i believe the Marsh Tacky could have some from a hundreds of years back is the fact that arabs were mainly imported to the Carolinas and Virginia. Nobody really knows for sure though, and like Mrs.Michelle said the past is the past. The canadian horse mentioned does kind of interest me.I wonder if the Pryors have any blood from them? The dished feature has actually really started to appear in inbred quarter horse especially reining bred ones over these last few years. I think that basically any breed can have individuals with a dish face whether there is arab influence or not.

[Michelle Clarke]

Just look at what has happened to dog breeds over the years being bred for specific traits. Think of the Border Collies' heads and how small and thin they got. I also remember with the Russian who was breeding foxes for domestication - one of the issues that cropped up was smaller, refined heads with more of a dishy look. Plus white markings (another sign of close line/inbreeding). They never had any other breed introduced.

[grullagirl]

Definately the dished and apple heads are becoming more prominent in dog breeds today along with larger more bulging eyes. I personally think the worst thing that has occured with the dog breeds is that people are breeding for brachycephalic traits. When you look at pekigneese and english bulldogs 50 years ago they look nothing alike what they are today. Excessive white markings in border collies and aussies can indicate deafness. I think this is mainly caused by inbreeding but also breeding merle dogs to eachother which have about a 80% chance of producing a lethal white, deaf and blind. It really reminds me of the OWL gene seen in paints. Its funny how some signs of inbreeding can be seen in several different species.

[Michelle Clarke]

Deafness is found more and more in Paints/Pintos with white ears. When I bought my first two foundation QH's, I was careful the mares I picked because I could see a lot of inbreeding traits in many of the horses. They had started the breeding program in the 40's with one stallion and two mares - never another horse added. At the time I looked at the horses, he had 170 of them and I saw lots of dished heads and bulgy eyes - plus white markings now that I think of it.

What I guess my issue is with many things that are stated as fact and thrown around so easily is that while you can learn much from reading books, listening to other proclaimed experts and studying theories - nothing beats actually getting out there and talking to folks who have been actively breeding for years and have true experience in these subjects. Or doing it yourself. When you are talking to a fifth generation breeder, you better respect what they have seen and the things they actually know as facts instead of trying to prove them wrong by having read what someone else who has no actual life experience has theorized (except maybe breeding rats in the lab).

The point is, saying every breed that has an individual here and there with a dished face, has arabian ancestory is a silly statement at best. That is like saying every person with a large nose must belong to one specific group of peoples.

[dunbnwild]

All the inbreeding issues are exactly why the small herd sizes on the Kiger and especially Riddle HMAs should concern folks. Saying the herd sizes have always been small, is exactly why we need more now. But that's an argument for another post, lol.

We have a few big QH events here in Oklahoma and all the cutting horses looked 1/2 arab. My friend and I argued- she said they had to be 1/2 arab and I was like, no, I really think these are all pure breds. But they sure did look like fat butted arabs.