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Post by barbhorses on Jul 8, 2011 13:15:09 GMT -5
Sad thing was that I knew of several people that would have bid on the Sulphur geldings if they had been stud colts. I called up the BLM and let them know of their mistake which of course was met with a sigh on the other end. As far as the current Sulphur herd goes, the horses do not even look the same as the old blooded horses. Finding a true and classic old Spanish type Sulphur coming fresh off the range seems more like finding a needle in a haystack these days! Really sad, but that has been my observations from watching years of adoptions.  I know very well that the Kiger and Sulphur herds are very popular with the Kiger no doubt being more popular due to the very well organized marketing strategy. Which is very commendable! I think that from the photos of this year's Western States Horse Expo that it looked even more well put together than when I saw the Kigers exhibited at the 2003 WSHE. |
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Post by stlkigers on Jul 8, 2011 15:20:41 GMT -5
Here's an email from a friend of mine that is there observing the gather....it all sounds like day one went well, can't wait to hear from him to see how day 2 went!
"We talked a bit there, going over morning plans, then on the road to the HMA! Would you believe we went back the way I came, right past the turn off to my place!
We got to the HMA, and found where they wanted us to hide so we didn't spook the horses coming in and waited. Now does it make sense that we were on one side of a quite large canyon, with horses being on the plateu across from us, another bunch a few miles up the canyon, plus some scattered horse here and there. The actual gather site was down the canyon a few miles, and quite visable, if you had good eyes, and a strong pair of binoculars!
In actuality, where we parked our tired bods, was in a spot with good visibility to all that I just described. They already had the horses located, so when they started, they brought the smaller bunches together into two groups that were (I'm guessing) two miles apart. They brought one group part way down the canyon, then turned them back when they started going up the side. One chopper had brought these horses to a planned meeting point, while the second helicopter brought another group together at the far end of the canyon, and then down to the first group, brought them all through a gate in a drift fence, and then slowly moved them all down together and around a bend in the canyon into the wings of the catch pen!
I was amazed at how well they moved the horses, without getting them wound up. I didn't see any horses get wild and try to take off, they all stayed together, and while moving at a good pace, they stayed together, and at the same time moved slow enough that a mare with what appeared to be a few months old colt by her side stayed right with, but at the very back of the group.
I had never heard of using two choppers, but it sure made things easy, with one holding one group of horses, while the other moved the second group. Then when they were together, one chopper slowly moved them down the canyon, while the other watched for any strays (which i didn't see any of!
It ended up that from where we were, we could see everything I described, very well, and how the whole scene played out. I don't think I could have asked for a better way to see how a gather was properly done. What a great group of professionals that gathered together and moved the horses! I think a lot of us were watching the foal, but he stayed right with, although at the back, of the herd. They all moved together with no loners or spooky horses trying to go another direction. I'm impressed!
Tomorrow morning, if weather holds and it appears to be, we are scheduled to gather at another location so it's not necessary to move the horses to great of a distance. If all else works, I will be able to tell you more about that tomorrow afternoon. I have a film camera, and am taking some pics, but we're at a pretty long distance. After I get them developed, I will see if I can blow them up some for better visibility and send them as soon as I can!..."
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Post by stormyranch on Jul 8, 2011 18:33:22 GMT -5
EXCELLENT!!!
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Post by lindad on Jul 8, 2011 20:42:37 GMT -5
Deep sigh of relief!
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Post by Michelle Clarke on Jul 8, 2011 21:49:05 GMT -5
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Post by hhf40 on Jul 9, 2011 5:58:13 GMT -5
Michelle,
I read the entire article, and I have also now read two accounts on here written by Kiger people who are actually at the gatherings and both are saying how well things are going, and how professional the folks are that are doing the gathers. This is another example of some "do gooders" finding fault where it doesn't exist, and they should make better use of their time, and mind their own business. The gathers are not cruel - as is being witnessed this week - and to say the BLM must leave a certain number on the HMAs for genetic viability is also not correct. Somehow, everyone seems to be forgetting this whole thing started back in 1977 with only 27 horses.
Bill
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Post by Michelle Clarke on Jul 9, 2011 9:04:24 GMT -5
Bill...I totally agree with you. I posted it because Andi did a great job with her posts and helping to understand the fact - the real ones!
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Post by sbutter on Jul 9, 2011 11:19:54 GMT -5
The BLM is doing their best to keep the Kigers safe and I am glad that there are honest bloggers out there that have photos to verify. I pulled up old info that I got off of the 1996 BLM management plan on the KHAR site. www.kigerhorse.org/blm_complete_plan.php "The Kiger HMA’s AML is a population of horses ranging from 51 to 82 animals." "The number of horses that will trigger gatherings are 56 for Riddle Mountain and 82 for Kiger." "Numbers of horses to be maintained in the HMA after a gathering are 33 in Riddle Mountain HMA and 51 in Kiger HMA." "A 50 percent male and 50 percent female sex ratio is generally considered to be the standard for herd management. The herd may be managed for a 60 percent male and 40 percent female population to reduce reproduction rates and aid in managing horse numbers." "Maintaining a healthy and sustainable herd of 33 to 56 wild horses in the Riddle Mountain HMA… Maintain a healthy and sustainable herd of 51 to 82 wild horses in Kiger HMA..." -------------- I do think gathering needs to happen every four years; I am just confused on how fast an inbreeding depression can occur. Even with the HMAs fitting into the AMLs (thinking of the 60/40 ratio that the geldings probably fit into) how are they insuring some kind of a rotation? Even with a swap every so often between HMAs, wouldn’t only a handful of stallion’s genes be passed on because they are polygynic? I could maybe see how 84 non-related/little related horses could be genetically viable, but what if large groups of them are related? I still don’t know their process on genetic testing and selection process. If they just look at the whole herd’s genetics and not the “productive” portion, I would imagine that there is a difference. If the majority of the offspring are all gathered up from the past 4 years, then we are left with the original ones out there. If there are a couple youngsters turned out, the chances of them being related are high (unless they check parentage and turn out according to that), since only a few stallions are breeding. Eventually the older stock will die off or get adopted and the younger (related) generations are the ones producing. From the statement of "Maintaining a healthy and sustainable herd" it sounds like they are aware of my above question. I just wonder how they are specifically doing it. True the Beatty Butte 27 started it, but the BLM added a couple here and there (from what I have heard). I don’t know what the timeline was but I remember hearing that Ron was upset about the grey horses being added in the end, because they were not claybanks. They must have felt the need to add to the herd genetics at the time, otherwise they wouldn’t have wasted their time. That brought up the whole found horse issue and I don’t think anyone wants to go through that ordeal again. So if the BLM felt the need to add outside horses in the past, what are they doing differently to ensure that all the genes out there are getting used? I don’t think the BLM is “destroying” the kiger horse, but they may have plans/procedures that are not what the public wants. They were ok with adding Spanish type horses in the past, why not do it again? Again, most of you have been around longer than me and witnessed these events, so please clarify and add insight if you have any corrections. |
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Post by hhf40 on Jul 9, 2011 12:03:30 GMT -5
Sarah,
I have read on many internet sites that the BLM ( or Ron Harding ) found 27 horses. That is not quite true. The BlM captured a bunch of horses from Beattys Butte in 1977 and several of those horses were duns, and looked very much alike. Ron Harding saw them in the pens at Burns and felt sure the BLM had captured some very good Spanish type horses, and he felt they needed to be separated from the others and protected. So from all of those captured horses, they selected only 27, created the Kiger and Riddle HMAs, and released them onto those two HMAs. From time to time, whenever they captured the horses, the BLM would switch the horses they re-released back onto the HMAs in an attempt to prevent as much inbreeding as possible. But you still need to remember, every Kiger we see today, whether freeze branded or bred domestically, originated from those original 27 horses, and of those, who knows how many of the original stallions actually bred mares. Probably not very many. But, of course, we do have some with "found" blood in them, but some of those likely came from the original horses captured from Beattys Butte - just not from the 27 the BLM kept as Kigers. You know there are dun horses in other Oregon herds that look like Kigers, so even they likely came from the same horses.
Bill
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Post by staceyinoregon on Jul 9, 2011 17:50:36 GMT -5
Sarah--I do think you pose good questions--and balancing the range management levels with the needs of this special gene pool is the crux of the issue it seems. Everything I read says 100-150 for genetic diversity.
The original "27" were genetically tested and managed carefully for many years. Other species have been "saved" with fewer numbers than 27, but it is not a baseline we want to return to. It took alot of work/testing and manipulation to get the diversity. It seems that unless we are willing to genetically test and manage each animal's placement we need to avoid low release numbers. 76 seems low to me, by about....24.
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Post by DianneC on Jul 9, 2011 18:48:10 GMT -5
The early years they spent more time on the range, it seems to me. They did have some horses with parrot mouth and other things and were careful to remove them. I do hope that someone with a good eye is choosing the horses to turn back out. Last adoption was not the kind of quality seen in previous ones. There were some good horses, but "back in the good old days" when Ron was selecting the horses that went back out there were mostly good ones. That's as big as genetic diversity to me. Good conformation is hard to breed back into a herd.
So all animals get one gene from each parent. If a horse inherits a damaged gene then usually the other gene is OK and will carry the load. But with a bottle neck situation all the horses have the same genes and then the chances of getting a damaged gene from each parent increases.
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grullagirl
Weanling
Have you hugged your horse today?
Posts: 238
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Post by grullagirl on Jul 14, 2011 14:24:09 GMT -5
It's such a shame now that the BLM has decided to indiscrimently geld the studs. While I do agree that most studs brought in do need to be gelded, some are of excellent breeding quality. With the herds who are considered to be the most pure regarding the spanish blood i wonder if they have ever consulted breeders on their opinions on gelding certain studs while adopting others out intact. Does anybody know if they have thought of doing this? Its great to hear the gathers are going so smoothly as well! Thanks for all the updates.
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Post by Michelle Clarke on Jul 14, 2011 15:30:13 GMT -5
The gelding will not help the genetic diversity. I find it hard to think that the horses are kept track of enough to know who is related to who...
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Post by nrly on Jul 14, 2011 16:56:28 GMT -5
I agree Michelle
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grullagirl
Weanling
Have you hugged your horse today?
Posts: 238
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Post by grullagirl on Jul 14, 2011 16:57:43 GMT -5
I totally agree Mrs.Michelle. Do you know if releasing a gelding would affect herd dynamics or would they most likely just join up with a bachelor band? I wonder why they are going to release these geldings possibly when they make very desirable riding companions?
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