Kigers ON the Bit

[pepper]

No worries Michelle,didn't feel "targeted"..I'm a big girl & this ain't my first rodeo....I know there are a lot of abuses going on in the name of "dressage" especially in the show world which is one reason I quit the whole scene 30 yrs ago.However,I do feel the training is good for any horse so use the basic methods on all my horses.Amigo has turned out to be talented and actually likes the work but if he ends up only being a happy trail horse it won't hurt him to be "educated"..:>)

[fantasykiger]

Thanks for the clarification pepper..your right I am riding with contact then, when you discribe it like that.
My daughter's Arab Cal' is a bitless boy too and does great. Fantasy has done really good this year so far, I see a bitless future for her.

[mystickiger]

Now that I'm typing on a real keyboard, to answer angelsdream and reiterate what Michelle said, on the bit is a term commonly used in dressage but also carried over to all facuets of riding due to the adoption of the term by the ASHA (American Show Horse Assn). It really is a commonly misunderstood phrase that could be better defined by on the aids. Even with that, on the aids will be misconstrued and debated on the internet. Pepper, your description of a reach for contact , for that “what now” communicative feel is probably the most common explanation. I personally prefer the phrase “on the aids” but then again I didn’t write the rules. For the sake of conversation I do think on the aids is an easier concept to understand. No matter, on the aids or on the bit is not about headset. Headset can be forced, cramped etc. as we all know. That in itself leads to a false picture, possibly even submission in some peoples eyes. Submission is an entire other discussion to me! Tolerance is not submission.

So... there really is alot of good thought provoking info in this thread. What I'd really like to discuss is my original question. "Can anyone tell me about their experience or recommendation with Kigers working on the bit, particularly the snaffle?” A horse can certainly be on the bit in a curb but I’d really like to discuss the snaffle as it relates to personal experiences with Kigers. The curb bit is yet a different discussion to me.

Michelle, you've brought up the fight/flight in relationship with the atlas and axis and the need for the horse to be relaxed. This all comes from engagement behind in the perfect ride. Unfortunately, I have a spectrum of rides ranging from ugghhh to very nice on any given day. I've always believed that emotions, as it relates to relaxation, plays a huge role in this. What I can' t figure, nor anyone I've ridden with or that has actually ridden my horse why such a marked difference between bosal and snaffle. I realize that ups and downs are all a part of progression. I also realize that consistency is what achieves goals, that proper dental attention, bit fit, saddle fit, rider position etc. all play a role. If the only diference is bosal/snaffle, bosal is consistent, snaffle is not. At first, I leaned towards softness of hands; even a remembrance of what was not soft or forgiving to start. But we are well past that now and some of the best local and nation riders experience the same with her. Are you able to be consistent as far a time goes in under saddle work? I would like to hear more specifically about how you horses take to the snaffle bit. Theory is important, but I have been theorized to death and just need to feel it. Are you able to get, with consistency, the “on the bit/ on the aids” feel out of your Kigers as you bring them through your program before they go to their new owners? Pepper, do you consistently get Amigo to be on the bit when asked when you ride? Just wondering as I feel so alone in this problem. But, general Kiger videos I watch tell a different tale most of the time. Why? It can’t just be me???

[DianneC]

Karen, you are so experienced that this sounds silly to suggest, but I have seen a lot of difficulty with a regular snaffle in my horses even ridden with a light hand. I switched over to a three piece (dog-bone) snaffle and some of them did better. A curved jointed snaffle, like a Myler seems to work well for some horses too. As far as on-the-bit, I'm not an expert. But Chinook has been ridden in a Boucher, which can be harsh, for the last several years and has done really well with it as far as being comfortable, again ridden with a very light hand.

[mystickiger]

Dianne, your mention of the Baucher has me thinking. I have tried a baucher in the past but really did not like it so went back to the regular old D snaffle. Now that I think about it, giving the baucher with a snaffle mouthpiece a try might be worth looking into. The baucher I used was mullen mouth since my thinking at the time was that the sensitivity was coming from the movement of mouthpiece. The baucher with a snaffle mouth might just provide the stability she's seeking. As far as harsh, I don't think they are if used correctly. If you think about it, riding in a rope halter that's become so popular can also be harsh.

Thanks for your reply. And please...nothing is silly. Regardless of the amount of time spent in the saddle, we are all continually learning from others and our horses.

[Michelle Clarke]

I'll touch on the tangible first...I have found that most horses in general, go much better in a three piece, shaped bit. Many don't like the french link in the middle - probably because those ends stick up in their palette I've used a dog bone a la western style and was pleased with that. Dutton makes a great one...I prefer the Herm Springer bits with the "bean" in the middle and shaped sides, loose ring. I find some horses go well in the Baucher - mine is a three piece shaped with a bean.

Rev HATES any bit, but will go okay in the real Myler sweet iron w/copper inlays, shaped with only one joint in the middle and he likes the support of the D-ring better than the loose. Honestly, he just can't stop figiting with anything in his mouth - no matter how long we work on it. Most of my horses are not bitted and go in what I call a Cavesson (from the Columbian style of riding) - it's a glorified leather halter with reins for lateral give and flexions:



I've used a regular rawhide bosal when I had Zorro and he did very well in it though he learned to get behind and take over with his feet - probably my error, not knowing how to really train in one to begin with. He rode well in the cavesson but also in the dog bone snaffle.

Most of the horses I sell are trained for that owner in particular. Many don't ride on the bit/aides. We train the horse to be responsive to leg (meaning transitions and also turning/laterals, etc.) and follow the rein (be soft and giving with the feet going with the rein) - that's pretty much as far as we get before the new owner takes over and then brings the horse along as they wish. Obviously, the ones I keep longer, we train further - but it again depends on the market. If the horse is going to be a pleasure or trail horse, the focus is different. If the horse hits a higher market, then we train to be more on the aides.

When I work with my horses, I actually teach them to round and get more velocity when I pick up the reins so they come into it (if that makes sense). However, I have found that this scares most riders and so I don't do this on sales horses.

I am just sticking to the pure Kigers here...Ora never had a problem with any type of snaffle (or even the curb when I rode her in one before I re-sold her) and would get on the aides with no problem. Consider though, we deal deeply with all fight and flight aspects (especially with the ground work before we even ride) and then we ride mostly off of seat and weight aides, so the bridle is just refinement or reinforcement. Her owner now will most likely never rider her on the aides, but Ora will respond well with any seat, leg or rein aide at any given time - even neck rein and no leg. She's just had a lot of training in her life!

Charro was never bitted and would get nice and round and on the aides with no problems; though a lot of his training was done bridleless because at that time we were doing all the big horse fests and that was the thing back then.

The crossbreds are all different. The QH crosses for the most part are not overly sensitive and have no problem accepting and working off the bit...on the aides. They can take a lot of mistakes or a heavier hand and not make the rider pay for it or get reactive to it. The Lusitano crosses seem to actually like the bit and find some comfort in it - just as they do the rider. They seem to say "I'm home and everything is right in the world" when they have a rider up. IT always amazes me. The big thing I always try to remember is that all of these other breeds were bred to be saddle horses and be trained and ridden. The mustangs are survivors and that is their main focus in life - they were not selected by nature to be companions and carry a rider and have metal in their mouth. It is very foreign to them; it's not in their character. I hope this is making sense!

Basically, when it comes to being accepted as part of their herd (something they understand), being a leader and adapting to domestic life as far as everyday living - they get it. When it comes to strapping on a saddle, being pulled around by their mouth and having something live sitting on top of them - it is far from natural to them. So, I think the bit really fits in this realm. I think they accept working off the nose much better than having a bit in their sensitive mouth and being used as a tool for control or guidance.

I think many mustangs are dulled to the point of having their dignity taken away from them and they just tune out as their way to survive. I'm not sure how many become willing, participating partners when I watch all these mustang competitions. They get through it and can do some awesome things but is it really a partnership? Are they willingly taking part or enjoying their work?

Sorry to get off on a tangent because I think this is a vary valid topic and something unique to the mustang on a much different level than getting a warmblood to be on the bit...

So, to answer your question - I can get them consistently on the aides but most are not bitted. Ora and Zorro were bitted and did get consistent with a lot of training; Rev has never been consistent with the bit but I don't really use one with him. Desi was bitted and actually did very well but he was not a sensitive horse and was very tolerant of a lot.

I've personally never seen more than a handful of any type of mustang that was consistent with the bit and on the aides that was anything above mere tolerance. In fact, in the many forums I frequent, what I see most and hear issues with the most, is mustangs gaping their mouths, clanging the bit or being very heavy and dull.

[DianneC]

Yes, the boucher or baucher Chinook is ridden in is a snaffle. I just talked to a trainer I respect and she said that she used the curved Myler level one comfort snaffle and starts bitting her horses at age two while they are being groomed, so its associated with relaxation.
Here is what it looks like:
www.doversaddlery.com/product.asp?pn=X1-010149&ids=1066925837

[barbhorses]

For Victoria, it all depends on her mood. If she is eager to go out and train then she pratically eats the bit! She just opens wide up and is like "insert here". lol She always bends her head around to me to accept the bit. If she isn't wanting to ride then I also have to lunge her. If she does want to ride then she could not be ridden in 5 months and continue on like there was never a break! When we trail ride she hates it when I ask her to give, but when we are in the arena and practicing dressage she always gives me her head no problem. She also has no problems if I hold the rein really steady and ask her to move into it. I think she gets more poofed up as far as how it feels anyways. Victoria loves to be worked with though. Total workaholic! She hates it when she messes up and is corrected. All it really takes to get her to stop something is either a look or to use her name in an annoyed manner. Then she is like "OK! I will stop doing that behavior!" I can't remember the last time I actually had to correct her with anything but kisses or clucks to get her moving at a fast pace. Two kisses = a gallop in Victoria world!

The only real issue I have with Victoria is to get her to stop using her forehand so much. Her daughter is the opposite. Her first reaction is to immediately use her hindquarters (I have to say that I wont be sad if she stays with me for a bit!).

For bits, Victoria hates a regular single jointed snaffle. She prefers a double jointed snaffle with a D ring and a copper roller in the center of the bit. She loves to play with it (gives her something to do as she is a nervous sort).

[barbhorses]

If I was ever able to ride a horse like this I would be VERY pleased with myself!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICbUDJJtjV4

[stormyranch]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=nk_n1yQlmT0&feature=player_embedded
Our these horses "on the bit" I think so.

[Michelle Clarke]

This guy is on the bit in a very elementary stage. Personally, I would have developed more self carriage first with a lighter rein. I actually considered taking out a loan to buy this stallion. I just LOVE him!

[Michelle Clarke]

Another fav of mine:

[barbhorses]

WONDERFUL photo!

[DianneC]

Nice photo, so a question...can a horse be "on-the-bit" and NOT have his ears on his rider? Don't think so.

[Michelle Clarke]

Thought I'd post this picture of Reina from yesterday. She is FINALLY carrying herself nice and forward with a good stretch. This was not accomplished by certain riding exercises but rather by working on her flight issues to get her more relaxed and supple.