Kigers ON the Bit

[mystickiger]

This subject has been on my mind for years. Mainly because first hand, my Kigers, of different confirmation, temperament and suitability/body type have both really been a point of frustration for me when it comes to truly having them on the bit. As a student I understand the theory behind on the bit. I have ridden school masters and have experienced true on the bit.

I'll admit that on the bit has been illusive, at best intermittent for me with Kigers. I've watched lots and lots of videos of Kigers riding, be it on the trail (which I don't expect an "on the bit" horse ), during dressage tests and schooling, at expos and western riding/pleasure/reining shows. I continue to see gaping mouths, behind vertical, head up, stiff horses. The horses may look like "name the sport" competitors to the untrained eye but really?

I got a real awakening to on the bit when I started transitioning from bosal, to two rein. I used to argue with a very well known Kiger trainer that you can get collection out of a good horse with just a bosal. For years we agreed to disagree until that person dropped the curb bit and went back to the bosal and retrained their horse and theirself. They had an "ahhh haaa " moment and their horses moved better for it. Then they moved back to the snaffle and fell right back where I've been. Seat, legs, hand these Kigers just didn't respond to snaffles the same. Put that horse into a Mona Lisa, they "appeared" to respond. But I can tell you first hand, as others will, it is a false response/collection.

I know that everyone has different expectations. Some want to only trail ride, which Mystic and I love the most! Some want to show, some want to event, some want to do dressage, some want to drive, some want to rein, etc, all of which makes for a well rounded breed. Can anyone tell me about their experience or recommendation with Kigers working on the bit, particularily the snaffle. Believe me when I say that I can put the two rein back onto Mystic and for all the world most people would think she is balanced and on the bit. She is not, atleast to the trained eye. It is easy to think that she is since she is blessed with the big, swinging walk and floating trot that is so common in Kigers.

[angelsdream]

When you say "ON THE BIT", are you meaning training or riding in a bit? Im not familiar with dressage terms, assuming this is a dressage term.

[Michelle Clarke]

I think this is a great subject and am interested to hear what people feel about it.

It will be important to define what "on the bit" means, as many people have different ideas. To me, it means they are on the aides - not necessarily leaning or balancing on the bit itself. Personally, I don't want any pressure in my hands - when I do use a bit; which is not often.

The Spanish/Iberian (S/I) type horses are very different to collect then your typical horse - being Warmblood type or stock type; not only because of their build, but because of their sensitivity. Warmblood trainers can ruin a Spanish horse very quickly trying to bring them along the traditional (Germanic) way; they end up with compact frames, tight backs and choppy gaits pretty quick. Since the S/I types already have a more round/collected build, it can be easier to bring them along when you understand how they operate so to speak.

While they do need some forward and down stretching, you can easily make them too heavy on the forehand and take all the motion out of their shoulders - very difficult to get back (believe me!). They need to learn un-compression exercises without taking the roundness out of them - easier said than done!

It is very easy to get them "behind the bit" as MysticKiger states. They learn to suck back, avoid contact (another topic!), disconnect the frontend and backend, etc. A lot of this stems from their temperment and not so much training. You have to understand the emotional side of training with these horses. All horses have fight or flight; however, the Kigers are so close to that "wild side" that it is more so and a lot deeper.

The mechanics of fight or flight (f/f) is directly related to the back feet. We are finding more and more that the better horses get at not only handling their back feet but being able to put their back feet in a tire; on a tarp; back through or over obstacles; pick them up with ropes; stop them from all gaits with a rope around each back foot and so on. The better they get with this stuff, the more the f/f goes away. This also lends to under saddle work - being able to place the hind feet where you want, when you want.

Now, besides the emotional aspect, you have the physical. When a horse is braced anywhere in his mind, his body is also braced. Just like in people, the horse will tense up his jaw. When they tense up the jaw, the rest of the body stiffens - which surely leads to sucking back and getting behind the bit.

Even deeper than that is the first two vertabrae behind the skull - the atlas and the axis. These get braced and not only are stiff, but blood flow to the base of the brain is closed off and the horse can no longer function logically - more blood goes to the f/f area of the brain. This is where I have learned to put in proper flexions to give the horse a system to understand to stay relaxed - a sort of reprogramming if you will.

Okay, that's a little deep, but it all boils down to the fact that you condition the horse not only physically, but mentally, to be open, flexible, well-rounded and free moving. This is what gives you correct self carriage and a horse that is on the aides...or the bit - however you like to view it!

[DianneC]

Wow, nice Michelle and Karen. I didn't know all that. What on the bit means to me is that you have a light feel of the horse's mouth at all times. The advantage over the loose rein is that you can make a very small movement of the hands, like raising one slightly to make it the primary rein the horse is paying attention to. So very small cues can be given with the primary rein to move the hip or shoulder over. A very small circle backward tells the horse "listen, we're about to change gait" and then a small release forward would mean trot from the walk. That kind of a thing. Used that way the horse is in self carriage, they are responsible for their own movement. In German dressage there is a lot of "hold them" with the bit and push them with the legs. The horse's head might be in the same position but the joy is gone IMO. The disadvantage is that you need a good "independent" seat so you're not balancing on the reins. It takes years to learn and there is always more to learn.

[pepper]

I don't believe kigers are more difficult to train to accept "the bit" or be on the "the aids"than other breeds ..if anything their uphill build makes it physically easier for them to collect and use their rear ends more effectivly.On the other hand is the matter of "submission"which is actually graded on a dressage test. Some stong willed critters tend to want to test their rider more than another horse might ....Amigo has never been ridden in anything but a wide mouth snaffle & though it sometimes takes a strong leg ,when he does give he's wonderfully light & forward.My trainer,Ronni makes it look easy but for me ....not so much!

[pepper]

Don't know if you can tell in this photo but his mouth is foaming which is also a sign he's accepting & using his rear end as well as front!

[fantasykiger]

I ride my Morgan mare 'on the the bit' alot of the time, it is how she is. She takes her ques from the reins/bit not the legs. To the untrained eye it may appear I have a death grip on her, but I don't actually.
Fantasy however does like Michelle mentioned with that much contact will get behind the bit. Fantasy is light and willing, at some point I would like to be confident enough in our relationship to do away with the bit.

[Michelle Clarke]

Foaming at the mouth has different meanings...a light lipstick means the horses' jaw is loose and they are softly working their mouth. Froth or excessive drooling is an emotional response. Also does not always mean that they are working off their hindend. I don't want this reply to come off wrong - just want to make sure things are clearly understood and not in any way taking away from the posted photo!

One thing that always amazed me is why dressage riders want their horses to work the bit softly, yet close the mouth with a nose band? Again, not being rude - just wondering what the thought process is? I always ask this when I see it on a horse and you'd be surprised at the answers! Many people have no real reason why - just that the bridle came with it. Once we had a high school trained Andalusian come in for re-training. She had kicked her handler at Equitanna and hurt him pretty bad when he asked for a capriole. The owner handed me her bridle - which had a flash nose band on it. I asked why did they need to tie her mouth shut? She answered because she opens her mouth. I asked why does she open her mouth? She answered because she evades the bit. Why does she evade the bit? Blank stare back at me. BTW, her trainer spent 7 years at the Spanish Riding School in Vienna, so he was not a back yard hack.

So I often wonder how one gets to that point - not saying that is the reason all people put one on their horse! I have found that a horse cannot physically relax their jaw when they are put in a position like this.

[sbutter]

This is all a very interesting read. I have noticed a lot of kigers that either keep their noses pointed up or gape at the mouth when the rider tries to keep them collected. There are also a couple that I have seen that, at first glance, seem to be collected but their lips are pulled practically half way up their face. The second the rider relaxes the hold, the horse stretches its head out. That just seems to be too much weight on the rider's arms.

What kind of exercises would you use for a horse that keeps its head down, but doesn't want to collect? We have a pony that my mom is riding, but she doesn't like the pressure in the mouth when she has to "think" about something, like siding over. She is ridden with a snaffle and she wasn't ridden for most of her life. Her teeth have all been worked on this past year, so we know there shouldn't be any mouth problems. If she is frustrated about something (even if she is just standing still), she likes to toss her head. She is great out on trails and has no other problems, she only does those things when she has to think about something.

[mystickiger]

Michelle I am not as good as you with words so I'll shortcut this with I am in agreement with things especially on the aids/on the bit. I feel certain my situation is emotions. Self carriage with the bosal vs the bit can be a combo of many things. Got to get back to work. More later.

[Michelle Clarke]

In my experience, keeping the head down can be an avoidance. Avoidance from what...can be many things. Physically, head down when in motion can be issues with the shoulders - be it the saddle pinching, the rider being too forward or being "out" or tight for whatever reason. There is a stress point on the top of the leg, in the midsection of the muscle that will show shoulder pain. It is an indent and your finger will fit right into it - slight pressure will cause them to winch or pick the leg up if the shoulder is out, painful or jammed.

Riding wise, she needs exercises that put her weight back so she has to get off the front end, thereby lifting her head. Something as simple as turning to the inside and holding the rein up and away from your body (belly button height and never back - just out) until her inside front leg follows the rein and she turns her front end more than the hind causing her to rock her weight back. Once she gets good at this, you can add the outside rein for support and more lift.

Since the head and neck are for balance, just begin to change her balance point as she gets into condition. Any forcing of the head up will only cause her to compensate somewhere else - like dropping her back! Oh, usually if they have back pain, the head will be up...

[DianneC]

A lot of western horses are trained to drop their heads at the lightest feel of the bit. Smoke was that way. Its used as a calm down cue too. With Chinook, he spent the better part of three months in daily conditioning before he was riden, although he'd been under saddle for years. Part of that was that he'd had an injury, but a part of it was to enable him to collect easily and have the strength needed after being a pasture potato. It was cool to see his topline change after about two weeks. A lot of the riding is done to further strengthen and learn self carriage. Its slow, after about a year I remember being amazed to see him lift into a canter from a standstill, it was like he was going to climb a wall.

[Michelle Clarke]

Thought I'd post a few picts to discuss. These are a couple of Ora when I bought her back and did some retraining on her. She had learned to get behind the bit with her previous owner and compress her frame. We had to begin by starting where she knew and teaching her more forward and better release in the stretch. This first one is where she was comfortable. Notice that even though her head is in front of the vertical, the poll is highest that she is short from front to back, her neck is sucked into her shoulder and her stride is short:



Here, Lynn is letting her move out some and get onto the forehand to lighten her hindend and free up her back some. I wish I had a pict of the next frame because what Lynn is doing is setting up a stretch. Lynn has her inside fingers closed on the rein and her inside leg going on as the inside hind leg comes up to ask for more reach and a slight bend to the inside. In the next frame you would see Lynns' fingers open, Oras' head come forward and her poll and neck open outwards while she stretched. She would open all of her vertabrae on the topline and allow a nice energy flow and forward release.



I'll look and see if I can find any picts in that grouping showing a more open frame...

[pepper]

I think we have a misconception of the term "on the bit" ,at least as I understand & have been trained to refer to it....first ,Tiffaney,it sounds as if you are riding your morgan "on contact",not the same thing we are talking about.When a horse is asked to be "on the bit" the signal first comes from the leg ,not the hand.The horse is reaching for the contact with your hands,asking "what now?"The bit is for communication,not control.If the horse is heavy or pulling more seat & leg is given and the bit gently moved,side to side,possibly even the neck moved side to side ,asking the horse "to give" and relax .This isn't the kind of thing that can be explained easily on a chat board but the concept is night & day from a "western head-set".
Michelle,the nose band Amigo has on is actually quite loose,he can easily eat a carrot or snitch grass on his way to the arena with it on.I understand dressage horses wear them to allow for more subtle communication with the rider's hand..which in the upper levels you often cannot even see the aids being given for even the most dramatic movements...a shift of weight in the seat,a squeeze of fingers results in horse and rider appearing to dance.
And as for the "wet mouth"...never heard of that being a negative.Usually a dry mouth is associated with fear,anxiety or pain..just check out the patients I see all day at my dental office!
Amigo is very expressive but not an emotional horse,at all.He appears to have only 2 major things on his mind..."can I eat it??" or "will it eat me??"This pic of him & Ronni is over a year old but I like it because he has one ear slightly back as she's placing her inside leg on him ,he's forward & relaxed as a Training Level horse should be.Certainly not collected though we are working on extentions & collections at this time.You can see him moving on Youtube at my site",japepper2010".
Oh & Tiffany,I ride my Arab on endurance races bittless.

[Michelle Clarke]

Pepper...thanks for posting and certainly thanks for the picture. I was not targeting you with the noseband - I know people use them for many reasons but some really have no reason!! I saw a good thread on the UDB Board; it is a little old so there is not a lot of new info as far as the biomechanics but it is a good read and lots of food for thought:

www.ultimatedressage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=50373&highlight=drool+foam+mouth