Kigers - where are we today?

[mystickiger]

Hopefully this will be a positive topic. Where is the Kiger in the current horse world vs 10 years ago? Lots of dreams back then; lots of "breeding programs" back then; small accomplishments IMHO but accomplishments nonetheless in a very limited scope. Major accomplishment, bloodlines were developed: faults - secondary bloodlines not necessarily developed. I have witnessed first hand the prejudice of an owner/known breeder to an otherwise known bloodline that downed the bloodline based on their fear lead inability or experience. Yet, they have acknowledged in public that said horse was probably the best they've ever ridden; just couldn't get past the fear. There is absolutely nothing wrong or weak about that person's opinion about "said" horse. Yet to pubically condemn a bloodline without further assessment is wrong and narrow for anyone let alone a trainer and breeder. Do you think the higher level horses of any breed are the easy ones?? My point is, I've been around these horses for year, not as a breeder. If bloodlines are important, which they are in all breeds, are we rising to meet the need? Personally, I don't think so. The highly trained Goodfield Enterprise Kigers are now dispersed. Goodfield's original Kiger Sombra went to a young girl whom we should all envy. Will his progeny ever really be connected to his name? Probably not. While his bloodline may live on we have yet to drop the clique that welcomes the newcomers. JMHO. Hopefully the remainder of Goodfield Enterprises well trainer horses will not be masqueraded as "family horses" without acknowledgement of the thousands of hours on their backs. Marketing our Kigers, wild or domestic, without honesty is determental to the breed. So now that Kiger's have been around as a registered breed for many years what have we produced besides several good trail horses, beautiful pasture horses, the occasional low level dressage horse? A Horse like none other? Absolutely! But we have to come together, use one another, to really get that message across. We need to ban togather and support one another, while maintaining breeding and bloodlines. Cause, let's face it...Steens Kiger bloodlines put the Kigers on the map. This is not a RL "rah,rah" but let's face it IMHO the breed is suffering without his marketing skills, controversial or not.

[stormyranch]

Well said Karen,
I do think we are headed in the right direction. Kevin and I are working together with Diane Chaffe and she is working together with Sarah Butterworth! We are here for each other with advice and encouragement. We do need to work on the quality of the breed and management of it. For that we need a registry that is not run by volunteers and has paid employees like all other registries!

[DianneC]

The difference is mostly that when you say Kiger Mustang now people go "Oh, I've wanted one of those" instead of a scowl and "mustang, huh". There is still a lack of well trained horses for sale, but is as much due to trained horses being immediately snatched up as anything. Ten years ago it seemed they were all either wild or back yard broodmares and stallions.
Rick did have some nice horses, I've been glad to own several of them. But he was also so detrimental to the breed with his anger and shenanigans. Especially the loss of the ancestry of his horses and dna testing of them. One day he'll be gone and what will happen then?
I've seen the found horse issue be resolved to at least give buyers knowledge of what they were buying. That's huge. And I see many people that had found horses have sold them and are now advertising their "foundation bred" Kigers. That's a big step forward.
What's been lost is the quality of the horses in the wild. Without the best being put back by someone who knows what they're doing I don't think the future will be good. There can be small differences but if we don't have consistent quality we will not have or deserve fame as a breed. You go to MacDonald's (or not) because you know what you will get. If the quality of the Kiger is inconsistent they will lose their "branding" as being a great horse. Right now the name "Kiger" means something. We've got smart, responsive, athletic and beautiful pretty consistent horses. We need to continue to do that.

[fantasykiger]

There was a small group of people with great passion for these horses and what they believed they could accomplish with Kiger Mustangs, whether that be wealth, wonderful equine companions or both. So much so they were willing to fight for it and they did. In the begining I don't think anyone could say they would make big accomplishments in any one discipline, how could they until there were trained horses to prove their ability, certianly the Kiger proved to be a great companion horse right away. The ease at which they proved to be to handle had the breed winning fans, as well as they are easy on the eyes. In time they did prove to have skills in several disciplines.
In my mind the Kiger Mustang is sitting idle, it is not dropping out of existance by no means but certainly not leaping forward. As the old school Kiger Mustang breeders and bloodlines fade, if new owners don't possess that same passion and commitment to a dream of the accomplishments to be had from the breed, I think they remain as they are today idle with few commited and loving fans.

[sbutter]

This current market has definitely put a damper on the breeding business and in the current circumstances, I think that is a good thing. There is really no demand for an unbroke horse, unless they have a phenomenal pedigree (which in the sense of accomplishments, the majority of kigers really don't have). So, if you want to make money with kigers, you have to put a lot of time and money into them. As a breeder, you have to ask yourself "what is it that my kiger has that others don't have?" Sometimes it's a simple thing as location. If your the only kiger breeder in an entire state, then you may have more of a demand for your kigers. Maybe you have the most "affordable" prices, but that doesn't make it profitable for you. Have your kigers competed against other breeds? Maybe your kigers are completely kid proof, but that also may mean that they are very slow and forgiving. A handful of kigers are getting out in the public eye currently and are competing. Those ones are actually showing what kind of potential the breed has. A horse that has never been "tried" has a lot of potential, but people don't want that any more. People want PROOF that your horse can excel at whatever it is. Is there anything in the family that shows the legitimacy of the claim? That is something we hear a lot in the TB world. Anyone can make the claim that their yearling has a lot of potential to race, but what are you basing it off of? Usually in those advertisements, they will list all of the notable achievements of the immediate family. The "uh-oh" moment is when they have to reach back into the extended family to point out the best achievements. It is so easy to water down the family within one to two generations. The mare may have been a top runner, but if she can't produce one herself, she needs to stop being bred. Sure you may hit those dormant patches in the family where nothing seems to happen, but the generation after may be phenomenal. It takes a very educated breeder to take those kinds of risks and they also have to be willing to burn through a lot of money. Secretariat was a "flop" as a sire (with the results of those immediate offspring), but he is a top broodmare sire.

With kigers, we are no where near this kind of level for testing out progeny. All of this costs a lot of money, but you can also get a lot of money. I don't know of any kiger that have really made money (except for their sale price) for their owner. Money will always attract people and right now, there isn't really a way to make money with kigers, unless your looking at the sale price. The lack of money within the breed will keep it small. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it does put the future of the breed in question. I do think this breed is capable of a lot more. The current breeders are in a critical spot right now. They can push the breed forward by promoting their kigers and competing with them, but if we continue to do what we have done in the past and don't put time into them, then the public could forget the kiger. Out of sight, out of mind. The circumstances have really shifted and the breeders have to adapt to the new setting.

[pepper]

I think it is unfortunate that Amigo's breeder has dropped out of the kiger scene.Don't even know if Steens Vaquero is breeding anymore but I do know that I've been keeping Amigo out in the public eye as much as I can in this corner of California.He gets soooo much attention everywhere.I can't say that he is a suitable horse for "everyone" but he certainly is admired by everyone...."most beautiful horse I've ever seen!" is heard over & over.
If someone could convince Matt to start showing "Cowboy" again I think he'd be a huge boost to the breed.
What's going on with him,Tiffany?Aren't you neighbors?

[hhf40]

Because I have only had my Kigers since the 2003 gathering and adoption, I am sure folks in the West have alot more knowledge and history than I have. But I saw the bickering and fighting going on even eight years ago and pulled away from all the registries. I realized these horses were different, and decided I would simply enjoy them for what they were. My Kigers were ridden over 1000 miles on the trails here in Ohio and surrounding states in 2010, and believe me, that is a tremendous way to get them out and market them to people. And Diane is correct. Now, when I encounter riders on the trails they say " Is that a Kiger Mustang? I would love to have one." It happens every time we head out. Ten years ago no one had ever heard of one, and that is a huge achievement.

Personally, I market them as good, safe, family horses. Here in Ohio, for every person that seriously shows horses, there are 500 that simply ride their horses for pleasure and especially on the trails. So, that is my market, and I can still sell them for more than we did eight years ago, at a time when folks are giving away their horses every day. Plus, those that do show here are so hung up with their long established breeds, that it would be a waste of time to attempt to change their mind.

I also agree with Sarah, it takes generations and huge dollars to establish a line in any breed - literally hundreds of thousands of dollars. Here in the East, Sombra was possibly the only Kiger ever trained as deeply as he was and shown at a level that might possibly start a line. But he is a gelding, all of his sons are geldings, and I am not even aware of a Sombra daughter. So when Melissa dispersed all of her Kigers last year, I brought all of them to Ohio, I kept Riddle Rendition, sent Storm to Florida, Couger to PA, and the rest are all with families here in the county, some to adults, and others to young children. Most of us use them for trail riding, and some of us also do all we can to promote the mustangs.

I fear the Kigers may someday just fade away. There are simply not enough Kigers or people with the time, talent, and/or dollars to really train them. Why do I say that? I'll use Sombra again as an example. I only know one Melissa Scott here in the East with the knowledge and dedication she has. So, if you want a Sombra, and don't have Melissas' abilities or dedication, it is easy to get one. Just get a good Kiger and pay a top trainer to finish him, and about $50,000 later, you will have one. Don't believe me? Run the numbers.

So, if we aren't going to train them to be great, and the BLM bred them down with their 2003 release, we all can be concerned with their long term prognosis.

We also need to be concerned about the entire BLM mustang picture with all the budget cuts that are occuring. I read on the BLM website the other evening the following numbers from 2010:

In 2010 the BLM budget for the horses was $65,000,000. They spent $37,000,000 for short and long term care. They spent $7,700,000 to gather 10,640 horses, or $724/horse, and worst of all, they spent $6,800,000 to get 2960 horses adopted, or a whopping $2300/horse. So in 2010, the BLM spent over $3000 for every horse adopted ( usually for $125 ). It keeps getting worse. They captured 10,640 horses, adopted out 2960, and then had to put the other 7680 into long tern holding at over $900/horse/year.

So if you are concerned about the future of the Kigers, you'd better be concerned about the entire wild horse program and work to get as many horses adopted as possible. Thaat is the best way I see to assure the longevity of the Kigers.

Bill

[Michelle Clarke]

This is surely a big subject. The Kiger certainly has come a long way in the last ten years, like Dianne said, many folks know the breed and admire them. It has been unfortunate that they have not been taken further than they have, but I don't think that is a fair statement either. There have been only a handful of Kigers that have gotten into the spotlight and it takes so much time, effort and money, that when you don't have other Kiger folks behind you, it is a mute effort. I am with Bill in regards to the registries and all the bs back in the day. That is the exact reason many of mine are not registered to this day - a registry must stand behind the breed AND the people trying to promote, even if they don't totally agree with them OR like their particular horse.

When we first got involved, we were super excited. Eric took Charro to every event in the Midwest and did demos for years. We were always at Midwest Horse Fair, Equitana, Ill Horse Fest, Ohio Affair and every little one in between. While most were not "breed demos", Charro is the horse Eric had underneath him doing the training demos. We stayed away from the breed demo thing for many reasons that have already been stated, including what turned into complete bashing of our horses by the exact person that sold them to us.

Charro is hands down the best horse I have ever ridden. This is coming from someone that has ridden Congress Champions, Jack Brainards reiners, Olympic 3-day horses, high school Andalusians, Lusitano bull fighting horses, million dollar Pasos, etc. Kigers are the TOTAL PACKAGE and a package that most riders can handle and enjoy.

There is nothing wrong with providing people with companion/trail or pleasure horses. That is the bigger market as Bill mentioned. While they are not going to pay megabucks, lets face it - I don't think anyone here is under the delusion that they are going to make a million dollars selling Kigers. That ship has sailed. If I wanted to stay in that crowd, I would have kept breeding my PRE's or gone to pure Lusitanos or kept my dang arabs for that matter!

The Kiger is a horse I believe in, just as everyone here does. They don't have to run faster, jump higher, run down a cow quicker or win national championships to be a good horse or a horse that can be marketed. Every stallion or mare does not have to have a line of ribbons behind them. There is nothing wrong with breeding horses producing good, solid amature horses. In my opinion, there are not enough of them. Just look at the QH being bred for one job - when they don't make it, what good are they? Performance bred horses are too much horse for the average rider. I have to giggle when someone brings a horse in for training and can't wait to tell me the bloodlines of top jumpers, dressage or cutting horses. Yet, they are here because they can't handle the hot temperment, intelligent mind or sensitive responses the horse has.

Many breeds are solely developed of being good amature horses that a professional can also ride and do well with. Just look at the Andalusian - while there are champions in their own breed shows, they are not out competing against other breeds at the top of the game (in general).

There are more amature owners out there than competative riders who want Kigers...who NEED Kigers. Period. Lets' own it and get busy producing and training those horses.

Change is in the air and the powers that be are shifting. It is unfortunate that the market for horses in general is down - it is not a reflection on the breed. For example; a client of ours is a marketing guru. She was just up at the Quarter Horse headquarters for a powwow. They are loosing memerships by the tens of thousands every year. They are scared. People are not registering their QHs anymore or joining the association. They brought out the point that todays youth has NO INTEREST in the horse - not like in the past. If the youth does not take a compassionate interest in the horse (not just compete for selfishness like I see more and more) and if the wild horse is getting decimated, then what is to be of the horse in the years to come? This is coming from the big guys - not me. Where is it all going?

It is getting more and more expensive to raise and train any horse. The average inquiry I get is for a trail experienced horse that can also do lower level dressage AND they want to pay $5,000 for the horse. I can't do it...they've got that much just in training in them for that level!

So...I think it is time for a Kiger Owners/Breeders Association - NOT another registry. Many breeds are run off of an association just as this. It needs to be a support for the horses and the owners in every, way, shape and form. It has to be done right, with no prejudice and whether the horse has hooked ears, white markings or not. Whether the owner trail rides or shows or just looks at their horses out the window.

It is time for change and time to focus on a REALISTIC target market. The more lower level horses that can get into the hands of amatures, the more they will take lessons and the more professionals will eventually see them and let it go from there.

[angelsdream]

I agree with what everyone says on here. The biggest issue with promoting in the show world is your average horse owner does not have $800/month to put towards training to show - it takes months and months (most of the time a good year) to train a horse to show and compete at top levels with other breeds and not to be the bad person here - but a kiger would have to be very well trained because we will get snubbed as soon as we register a "MUSTANG" to compete with (for example) quarter horses in cutting/reining/etc. We will be critiqued from the moment we step in, not saying a kiger couldn't do it - I truly believe they can compete in any discipline, they have the heart and versatility to do it. I wish I had the money to put into Bella right now just to show they could do it but reality is - no one has the money it takes to make a show horse now days. If you're not a trainer and can train your own horses - then you cant afford it.

I've recently been in the cutting horse world as I have a friend who is a cutting horse trainer and like Michelle said, it's all about the bloodlines whenever anyone talks about there horses - thats the first thing out of there mouth is what bloodline they have and how much the sire or dam has won, etc. Not to mention by the time the horse is 7 years old, its lame and is of no use to anyone anymore because of the extreme training they had to endure at age 2 and on. There is also a disease in the quarter horse called the "HERDA" gene that resulted from line breeding poco beuno and doc'o lena, where the skin just tears apart - very sad and the horse has to be put down but people are still breeding to that line because the lines has produced good cutting horses. How crazy is that??? So the quarter horse world is digging themselves into a very deep hole. And like Michelle stated, if they are good at cutting, that's all there good at - kigers are much more versatile and can do any discipline, so we should be very proud!!

Over the years, Ive seen the Kigers gradually dwindle down, well maybe the "HYPE". Has nothing to do with the breed, just not getting the publicity they used to, granted some was very negative publicity and not needed and I'm sure drove many away but as a breed we're not getting enough attention to help. I do have to say that most people you meet now days has heard of a kiger, so that's good. Hopefully with the upcoming kiger adoption, we can get some much needed attention. A great idea for the registries would be to get photo's and info from different kiger owners that are riding there horses, from different avenues and make up flyers or some sort of marketing idea so that everyone can see the different things kiger owners are doing and how they are.

Like Michelle and Bill said - a good trail horse is worth more now and what most people are looking for - since the economy tanked, people that love horses found that trail riding is much cheaper and they still get to ride and keep there horses - I know many people that have stopped showing due to the expense in training/show fee's/travel,etc but still trail ride. A trail horse will sell easier now but get's us back to there not being enuff TRAINED kigers out there or broke. If a good broke kiger comes available, they are snatched up quick.

The kiger breed could go any direction we want them to go in - it is up to us as kiger owners to do our best for the breed. Whether its as riding them, getting them out or as breeders and making sure your breeding program is good.

[DianneC]

That's true. I agree with everyone. The market, except for dressage, is for family horses which is where we can really shine. Kigers have largely become known by word of mouth. Can anyone think of a successful marketing campaign for them? Melissa riding Sombra at KHP was as close as it comes. So that is needed. Demand will cause more Kigers to get trained.
I think an untapped market is for lower level dressage. Crossed with the right Lusitano (the NEW popular breed in dressage) the Kiger can do exceptionally well. Granted, the Luso will get the credit for the ability, but it gets the Kigers out there. And there are a few full Kigers that can do dressage on their own. Think of the personality, soundness and beauty of a grulla doing dressage. It would positively turn heads. Angel's boy is amazing and his new owner already has plans for developing him in dressage.

[ctxkiger]

Ditto Michelle Ditto!!!!

[fantasykiger]

The last time I talked I talked with Matt and Pam they were still getting occasional outside requests for Cowboy breedings. Matt still brings him out of the pasture to run him thru his paces now and again, of course he is still a family riding horse. I haven't visited in awhile I usually do when the foals start arriving.

[sbutter]

I definitely think something can be done with the remaining breeders and agree with everything that has been said. I know the idea of a syndicate has been thrown around a while ago, but that may be the way to go if we want to get a very talented kiger out in the spot light. Even if we get a few heavy hitters in there, it will generate a lot of interest in kigers. I am excited to see Bravo in the spotlight and Regalo too. That will help create some buzz on the west coast. I know Justin Morgan is getting his kiger stallion Thunder out in the public eye. He said it's an uphill battle in Wyoming, because very few people think mustangs are worth anything there. It sounds like we have awesome representation on the east coast too.

[hhf40]

Diane - I guess everyone saw the announcement on the KMA Facebook page about the Kiger demo at Equine Affaire in Ohio in April. That is my best shot at a marketing campaign to promote Kigers. Put a young 4H drill team on four Kigers and put on a 10 minute show. The Kigers all came from the wild, and the kids range from 5 to 14 years old. Can they put on a Melissa Scott caliber show? Certainly not, but that isn't our goal. The purpose of the demo is to demonstrate how nice these horses are to work with, and you'd better believe that when everyone sees Sombra taking care of his tiny, 5 year old rider, it will get peoples' attention, and that is our best way to get more people to adopt Kigers.

I agree with Sarah that it would be very possible to form a syndicate, pick the best Kiger out there, hire a trainer, and in time, win competition after competition. But my question is " what would we accomplish? " As I said earlier, show people are so tied to their established breeds, you will never convince them to use Kigers for showing or breeding. Look at Truthsayers Sun as an example. Dan literally shows Sunny every weekend, and wins ribbons on top of ribbons. But like he says, " I can beat these people every weekend, but they are not going to breed their QH mares to my mustang." They are too tied to their breeds. That is why Dan is now doing eventing with Sunny, and doing extremely well at it.

Again, our market is good, safe family horses, and my goal is to get as many mustangs adopted as possible. I am a numbers guy, and if one in every thousand pleasure horse owner in the US would adopt a mustang, the BLM would run out of them overnight.

Now, I'm going to get off of here for a while and go mess with my horses.

Bill

[stormyranch]

Michelle, what are your ideas for Kiger Owners/Breeders Association? Let's start a new thread and talk about it.
L