The "old grey"

[Michelle Clarke]

My guess is that the old grey stud was pulled because of color, maybe someone knows different though. I mean he is an old guy, been out there a long time, obviously has great old genetics and is a nice looking fellow.

I know that when the Kiger breed was "developed", that color was a big issue. It still is as far as I can tell (as that was the topic of MOST conversations I overheard at the adoption), which is a shame considering some of the bays were nicer than some of the duns and grullas at the adoption.

Especially if you go by the fact that grey is one of the main colors in Spanish horses - bay being the next.

I also belive in one of the Cothran reports he warned against being so picky about color in such a small gene pool.

When JP was here looking at my stock, he said the Rev was the nicest male out here and why the heck would I even consider gelding him. When I said because he is going grey, JP just shook his head at me.

My loss and my own danged fault.

[lindaf]

Do you think I can find these Cothran documents on the Internet?

Am I correct in assuming that the grey would have been too low in the social order at his age to still be a breeding stallion?

Linda

PS: I think that educating potential Kiger owners about not selecting on color alone is very important. It seems to me that intervening in the color balance of the Kiger herds diminishes the very thing we love about Kigers, their relatively pure Spanish character.

[DianneC]

Its hard to know if he was a herd stallion or not when he was captured. Mestano still had a couple of mares late in life so its possible. But this guy wasn't beaten up like the injured black was so my guess is that he was not.
These old genes are very valuable I think. You can see the Spanish shape to his head. I'll bet with some good grub he would be spectacular. I would be tempted to breed him to a few mares to see what he produced.
I still remember being challenged by a grey stallion on the Kiger HMA in 2002. Magnificent horse! I was watching the herd through binoculars and he came out doing his power trot with his neck arched, ears pricked and tail high. I remember thinking that I'd never seen a dressage horse to match him.

[juslyn]

Since they have been culling the greys, it seems likely that the grey stud you saw is the same one. I remember reading a few times about the BLM trying to capture an elusive grey stud and being unsuccessful. I'm guessing that they finally caught him. He is a beautiful boy and am glad that a home and ride are in the works for him. Is 17 considered old for a horse in the wild? He's survived all this time in the wild and deserves a safe place to relocate to. If he winds up being bred, he is most likely heterozygous for grey, thus able to produce nongreys as well.

Suzy

[fantasykiger]

I never thought about the stallion being heterozygous for grey therefore that could explain why there are so few grey Kigers in the wild. When I should have, seeing how my grey mare produced a non-grey filly. (smacks herself in the head) It also appears to me from the freckling on his face he was either bay are a very dark dun before he went grey.
I happen to be a fan of the grey Kiger my mare is a grand daughter of Mestena, that was a mare that seemed to pass the grey around. I definately do not agree with theory if you let the grey in it will eventually wash out all other color in the breed. Which was the original thought. I just have not seen it and claybank or grey whatever still seems to be hard to come about.

[Michelle Clarke]

I am surprised that you'all had the same idea of breeding him..... ;D I was thinking of what a genetic treasure he probably is, especially with all the changes that are being made with the herds now. Well, if we can get him here and he is worth breeding, then we will have our work cut out for us in getting him to collect. Though we have no problem with Charro and a jump mare, so who knows? If things did work out and others wanted to breed to him, we could do it just for cost so we can preserve those genes.

Though first and foremost is making sure he does not end up in a bad way. He sure appears to be a nice guy and I hate to see a guy like that end up in a holding pen or worse the rest of his days. I sure want to do the right thing and not exploit him either.

[Michelle Clarke]

Linda, I was wrong, the report in regards to color was Sponenberg "White Markings, Spanish Horses and What does it all mean?" It used to be on the Sulpher registry site, but they have really changed it and I can find it....maybe on the Colonial Spanish horse site? I have it printed out here, but it has no address on it.

Here are a few others though that you may be interested in:

www.kigers.com/smkr/cothran.html

www.frontiernet.net/~RanchoTamarisque/EvaluatingSpanishHorses.html

www.frontiernet.net/~RanchoTamarisque/Sponenberg-type.html#type


Also, the pinto coloring was mainly in the Jennet, which is also an Iberian type horse. A gal who is a Spanish-horse history afficianado, just loved Sycha when she saw a pict of her and went into detail about the pinto coloring and it's origins. I have a book written in the early 1700's by de la Gueriniere, goes through the colors of horses, and pinto color was listed...they preferred horses of Spanish origin and there are plates of many colored horses that are clearly Iberian type. Spain does have pinto-colored Andalusians that show up once and awhile, but the CRIA does not register them ~ they also did not register chestnuts until recently, so everyone just waited until their chestnut greyed before presenting it!

[lindaf]

I appreciate the sources, Michelle. Thanks.

Not being well versed in historic color preferences, I thought the pinto pattern was New World trendy. Not.....

[Andi]

I thought I would reply to a bunch of questions with one post ...

I suspect the gray was a herd sire in the past but not when they gathered, as the scars he had before he started fuzzing up when they first brought him in are old.

17 isn't old for a horse in the wild. At the last Kiger adoption, there was a 26 year old mare with a foal at her side, and likely pregnant, in the adoption. Mesteno was seen with 2 mares at his side and I think he was near 30. When they brought in the Warm Springs herd the time before last, Dollar, one of the main herd stallions (black and white spotted Appaloosa), was 22 at the time and still a herd stallion as was his son, Half Dollar, who I think was 16 or 17 at the time. I have a photo of a palomino stud from Palomino Butte that was brought in and put into another HMA because he kept breaking into a nearby ranch and stealing mares and he was 16 at the time. When I helped the BLM with processing the Warm Springs HMA last year, there were a LOT of 20+ year old studs and mares, all in fine shape and you were never know they were over 10! I'll try to find some pictures to show you.

As for the gray "washing out" all the color eventually ... that just won't happen. Unless ALL the herd stallions are homozygous for gray (unlikely), then just won't happen. We have a gray QH mare that has had 14 foals, 2 of them gray. White markings, as previously thought, have no bearing on dun factor either. I have the full Cothran report around somewhere; I called the BLM and they sent it to me. I don't know if it's on line anywhere but I've been given permission to put it on line as it's public info but just haven't had time yet. I'll find time here soon now that I have a working scanner again. Be forewarned though -- it's pretty technical and hard to understand! One thing of interest though that isn't well known ... there are 4 possible markers of Spanish ancestry and the Kigers have 1 of those markers. There is a herd in Oregon that has 3 of the 4 markers and I don't recall ever seeing a dun in the bunch. That would be Murderer's Creek horses. They are "mountain" horses, and tend to be dark -- bay, black, brown, small in stature, heavy forehand, large heads, large nostrils, kind of funky looking really. Warm Springs, with the Appaloosa's, have 2 markers. And Appaloosa's have been found in cave drawings from eons ago. They are an extremely old breed/style of horse.

I hate to see the Kiger registry or breed or what have you, go by the way of being a color registry. Without bays, you don't have the zebra duns; without black, you don't have the grullas; without chestnut or sorrel, you don't have red duns. And, as was pointed out already, there are LOTS of Spanish horses that are beautiful bays and blacks and grays! I, too, saw many bays that were exceptional in the Kiger bunch this time.

Anyway, that's my thoughts/input on this ...

Andi
Burns, Oregon
Last Chance Ranch
equine.wisecomp.com/

[stlkigers]

So Michelle:

Are you going to get him?...........................Andi could be your proxy bidder at the next adoption if they send him there...Or maybe she could work her magic and he wouldn't have to go through the stress of the adoption!

Angela

[desperatehorsewife]

Does the gray affect the dilute, creating the silver dun? That's what I was told, anyway. I'm no good with dilutes, so haven't a clue.

I do know that Tom and Vonni would rather work with older stallions than younger horses. They say they come knowing how to work with you because of all their years in the herd.