cross registering Kigers

[Brandy Deck]

I would like to know if anyone here has ever registered their Kigers with any of the Spnish Mustang registries. I contacted the SMR registar and was told that they would still consider registering wild born mustangs if they passed the inspection....but absolutely no Kigers would be accepted. I was not told why. Kiger folks lay claim to the "purity" of the breed, but obviously the Spanish Mustang folks do not see it the same. I am wondering if they think the Kigers are mixed. I have spoken with the HOA registrar. Those folks seem a bit more accepting. I will have to submit photos and video for an inspection. If my filly passes, she can be registered as a Colonial Spanish Horse. They seem to have a lot more going on than the Kiger organizations. I am really hoping she will qualify for registry.

[kigermustang1]

Shasta, the mare I am leasing is also registered in the Southwest Spanish Mustang Association. (SSMA) As for the foal I am STILL WAITING FOR, it is not eligible. The only way I could register the foal is if I had bred Shasta to a registered SSMA stallion.

[barbhorses]

Loaded question! Of course I am not afraid to answer as usual. Please don't attack me for knowing why Kigers are not eligible.

The Kigers are genetically a Spanish influenced horse, not a Spanish breed. They were not placed into the Iberian breed group genetically, but were placed into the Light Riding group along with other Spanish influenced horses such as the Morgan, QH, etc. The Kiger often displays conformation that looks more like a QH or Morgan and does not have old Spanish type. Nor do they have the required history (SMR requires an approved history to be even considered) to prove that they came from Spanish stock. The history of the North West is largely American and British settlements. The Spanish went up to the North West, but gave it up. Spanish occupation (which the Spanish stayed on the coast) only lasted for about a decade.

The Spanish felt that "The first object of our attentions should be California. There our conquest has taken roots, our religion has been propagated, and our hopes are greatest for obtaining obvious advantages to benefit all the monarchy. The Port of San Francisco . . . is the best of any that have been seen on the entire coast, according to the testimony of the celebrated navigator Vancouver. . . ."

www.washington.edu/uwired/outreach/cspn/Website/Resources/Curriculum/Natives%20Contact/Documents/25.html

The variety of types displayed by the Kiger, lack of having the required amount of genetic markers to place them as an Iberian breed, and the lack of a Spanish history is why most CS people as well as the SMR do not accept the Kiger as anything more than a lovely dun spanish influenced mustang breed.

This is not to say that if a horse isn't Spanish it isn't any good blah blah blah. This is nothing personal against the Kiger breed or people. Not like I posted these facts without being prompted to.

As far as the SSMA goes, I heard that a man (whose name escapes me at the moment) wanted to have at least a few Kigers registered. However, just like the Nevada stock that is registered SMR, nobody in the SM community thinks that those are respected registrations.

Please don't take this as me saying that I think an SM is better than a Kiger. I am just posting facts to a question that was asked. In other words, I am not posting an opinion, just facts.

[barbhorses]

Wanted to say that don't feel alone in this, there are many Mustang groups out there that can be registered HOA that the rest of the CS/SM group does not accept as authentic. Not like the CS community is only not accepting Kigers.

[Brandy Deck]

Thank you for that explaination. I wish the SMR registrar would have given me an explanation, and not such an abrupt answer. The Kiger organizations lay claim to the purity of Spanish blood of the Kiger horses. This makes it very confusing for new people interested in the breed. I love the Kiger horses. They are beautiful, kind natured and athletic. Why would the Kiger registries claim they are pure descendants of the original Spanish horses brought here, if it is not true? hmmm....this reminds me of some of the controversy about the origins of the appaloosa breed. Is the claim of "pure Spanish descent" just for publicity, or are the SM folks wrong and wish to keep the Kigers out for some reason, or are some people just truly mistaken?

[barbhorses]

What happened was back when Dr. Cothran originally did the DNA profiling on the Kiger and he found Spanish Markers, the Kiger folks at the time (give the benefit of the doubt that they were just uninformed about DNA as it was rather new back in the early 90's) took that to mean Spanish by breed. However, what they didn't realize is that ANY horse that has Spanish influence WILL display Spanish Markers! So, when they got the news that Spanish Markers were found in the Kiger, they ran with it and haven't looked back. The way the Kiger was promoted is something to be admired for even if the information wasn't accurate about the Kiger.

If you wish to speak to Dr. Cothran on his Kiger study then (I like getting first hand info) please contact him here. He allows me to play 20 questions with him and has always been gracious with me.

E. Gus Cothran, Ph.D.
Animal Genetics Lab.
VIBS, CVM
Texas A&M University
TAMU 4458
College Station, TX 77843-4458
[phone]

[e-mail]

Again, my post was not commenting on the temperament, movement, or anything personal on the Kiger. I think a good horse is a good horse whether they are Spanish or not. Please do not think that my posts are meant to bash the Kiger. I am just sticking to facts and keeping my own personal thoughts out of it as I know this is a touchy subject.

[Brandy Deck]

Thank you! I respect facts and honesty. It is so easy to get swept up in the romanticism surrounding background of some breeds of horses. I always thought the history promoted by appaloosa breeders and the registries was so neat....these horses are the descendants of the horses bred by the Nez Perce who specialized in breeding "spotted horses..yada yada. There is some truth to this, but it has been way over dramatized. I love my apps, but I have no "romantic" ideas about their origins. There is much bickering about "did they come from Spain?....Europe?...Asia? People are hard core about they have "heard" sometimes, and do not like to hear facts that contradict.

[Michelle Clarke]

There are alot more educated folks on this board on the ins and outs of the genetics/dna (and I hope they jump in here) and this is an old argument, but I would like to point out a few things.

Number one, there is an article by either Gus Cothran or Spondenburg on the fact that the dna markers are only PART of what you look at and that does not mean the Kigers are not of Spanish decent. It is on my old computer and I'd have to dig it up. In my opinion, it is sour grapes on the part of some folks PLUS the division in the Kiger breed itself and the fact that the Breed Standards are not even SPANISH. That is why Kigers are not "recognized" in many registries. Period. I've talked to and done enough research to find this out firsthand.

DNA is only part of what you look at. You consider history and also phenotype - what the horse looks like. If it walks like a duck and looks like a duck, then its' a DUCK. There is no denying the Spanish influence - major influence - on the Kigers. They move like a Spanish horse and look like one too. In Iberian/Spanish circles, my horses fit right in and in fact, historians consider them "old school" type....like the portuguese judge at one of the IALHA Nationals. Look at the Kiger and see with open eyes.

Kigers also have the temperment and trainability of the Spanish horse, which alot of folks don't even realize because they have not handled alot of these other breeds. We've trained everything from Andalusians, Lusitanos, Paso Finos, etc and then on the other side of the spectrum trained thoroughbreds, Morgans, arabs, QHs, etc etc etc. The Kiger fits right in with the spanish breeds. Morgan? hmm. Honestly, never met a Morgan with a temperment even close to a Kiger!

Lastly, you can have any mix of dna and what counts is what shows up. While other spanish mustangs may fit higher into the spanish catagories, that does not mean they don't have other blood in them or even look spanish. The mtdna is limited anyway (again - someone jump in here!) and only shows the maternal line...the sire could be an elephant and it would not show up.

Look up the sorraia sight and learn more about the spanish/iberian truths of the Kiger.

I expect this is going to get heated...!

[DianneC]

Just curious, what is the difference between having Spanish dna markers and having Spanish ancestors?

[Brandy Deck]

Don't get me wrong when I say, "bring it on"! I am simply wanting to learn. I have, over the past year, become very interested in the "Spanish type" horse. I am wanting to learn all I can. I have looked at the Sorraia site a few times. Interesting! I have run across a few Kiger horses on breeders sites that are registerd with SMA. Is this not the Sorraia registry? I can not find an actual "registry" on line. Maybe someone can clear this up for me? How sdoes a Kiger get accepted into this registry? inspection? DNA?

[barbhorses]

Any Spanish influenced breed or horse will have Spanish markers.

I would highly suggest that people that would like Dr. Cothran's opinion contact him at the address, email address, or phone number that I provided. I only know what Dr. Cothran told me.

[Brandy Deck]

I mispoke in my previous post. I meant SMS, not SMA. I found the link... www.spanish-mustang.org/startsms.htm

[barbhorses]

Michelle, I don't think that using modern Iberian horses from Spain and Portugal whom are known to be mixed with other breeds would be useful in identifying old Iberian type. I would suggest looking at breeds in the Americas that are known for their relative pure Spanish breeding.

Phenotype, history, and genetics is what the Kiger lacks to many CS/SM people which is why they are not accepted as a Spanish breed in many circles.

According to Dr. Bennett as well as Dr. Sponenberg, the Sorraia is a modern Iberian horse having no history as a domesticated horse nor as a wild horse. You can find Dr. Bennett's opinion in her book titled The Conquerors. Dr. Sponenberg's opinion I read a long time ago I think on the HOA message board or in an email.

[barbhorses]

Michelle, I do believe the Kiger to be Spanish influenced as we have evidence for that. We also have evidence that the Spanish horse influenced all of the other American breeds of horses.

Again, not talking about temperament, etc etc etc. I am talking about type (as in only the phenotype), history, and genetics. That of which appears to support that the Kiger is a Spanish influenced breed, but not a Spanish breed of horse.

I don't think that a big discussion really needs to happen as that will not change the facts of how the CS community views the Kiger.

I expect that the CS community views (well, majority of people, not all) is offensive to Kiger people especially if they believed them to be nearly pure Spanish. However, I highly suggest that instead of becoming upset, that people call and email the experts. I know for one that my opinion of the Kiger will not change unless new information arises that would give support for people believing them to be Spanish by breed. I would be curious for another genetic report to be done on the Kiger as new techniques are used than when the original report was done that supported the Kiger being Spanish influenced, but not a Spanish breed.

[angelsdream]

I'm sure this will get heated, but my views are yes, the kiger's do have spanish markers - OK, so why go back and forth about how spanish they are compared to other horse's that have spanish marker's also - this is the Kiger of today, it's OUR breed and it is what WE make it. No DNA test is going to change that. Let's look at what our kiger's have to offer (whether it be spanish attributes, etc) and showcase those qualities. Kiger's are wonderful horse's in there own way and can stand on there own without having to justify how spanish they are, why else would they have become so popular. Yes I see the spanish qualities in them also but it wouldn't change the way I thought of them if there were no spanish lineage. They are what they are, history and nature made them that way....it's nice to know the history behind them, but doesn't and won't change what we have in them today.

I think each registry has there own set of guidelines and these guidelines were all made by people with there own views of what a spanish horse is or was, so it's all "Opinions". Why would you want to register your horse with so many different registries anyway? I do agree that the Kiger registries don't have a lot going on, but we can change that (hopefully ) We do have some passionate people in the kiger's and would be willing to work at promoting them but there are some that breed just for money and don't care about nothing else - but I think most of them are starting to fade now that the market has crashed so much.